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Pippa Goulden (00:43)
Mills Gray is a business strategist, NLP practitioner, speaker, author of The Rebellious Leader and host of The Soul Leaders podcast. She helps successful women build businesses that create more capacity, more predictable income and less dependence on them as the operating system.

Her work sits at the intersection of business growth, leadership and behavioral change, helping women build businesses that work brilliantly

she's here today to talk about this brand new book The Rebellious Leader which is quite frankly brilliant. I've had a sneaky peek of it and it's got one of the best book covers I've ever seen of all time plus the content inside is going to blow your mind and I say this as someone who I'm going to admit it is not a huge fan of business books but I don't really think it's a business book in the traditional sense and we're going to deep dive into this so welcome Mills to PR Made Simple.

Mills (01:22)
Yeah.

Thank you so much. I was so excited to be here. And yeah, a business- I agree, I'm not a massive business book fan either.

Pippa Goulden (01:38)
So, well, let's get to it. What made you want to write The Rebellious Leader? Tell us about it in your own words.

Mills (01:45)
it's such a weird combo of slightly sort of hippiness and and a little bit of of I've been always told this this is gonna sound really weird. I often see mediums. Once a year I'll see a medium. And probably for the last eight years, they've always said, you should write a book and I'm always like, Really? Okay, weird, sure. And I've just always parked it. And then

I was in a mass mind with you and we were at that day in September and I'd been thinking, I need to do something different. Like I have this podcast, I love it. And then someone sat there, I think it was Jane, and she was like, You should do a book. And then she showed me some business books. And I was like, no, like I just don't have that in me. I don't. And then a client said to me, God, I wish you'd turn your podcast into a book.

And so all these little synchronicities were sort of happening and I thought, I I could turn my podcast into a book, but that felt boring. And so I thought, well, okay, let's just sit with the idea of a book. And then I have an astrologer who I see once a month, and she was like, Mills, can you do a book next year? And I was like, Fucking hell, this is like I need to go and do a bloody book. But as you just said, and as I I don't think I've ever completed a business book. I am the sort of person I've got.

hundreds on my shelf. Like literally if you looked at my shelf, I'm like da da da da da da business books, self-development, da da da da. And I always sort of get halfway through and I'm like, all right, you've taught me what I think I need to know and I never finish it.

Pippa Goulden (03:12)
I'm so glad you said that because I'm exactly the same. I've got so many of them. I'm like, I'm bored now. I've got to the point. You've said it in, you've said it already.

Mills (03:19)
You said it already, right? I don't need you to re-explain, re-explain, re-explain. So that was really part of like I was like, I'm gonna do one that feels like quick, easy wins, that just don't over explain everything too much. And so that's how I kind of started. I used my podcast as a bit of a benchmark to like, what what's what do people like, what's been downloaded a lot. And then I just started writing really randomly. It was like there's no structure to it. I just started writing. I just did the intro and I was like,

Once upon a time, you know, well, how did I get here? And then it just yeah, it flowed. So that's kind of the it's a bit it is a bit woo woo. The reason I say that is because it was just hints from like I suppose the universe to just go and do it. So I was like, All right, let's give it a go.

Pippa Goulden (04:00)
That is amazing. I

love that. And what do you want the reader to take away from the book? What is your intention with it?

Mills (04:08)
I love that question. So really I want people to close finish it. Some of my best chapters are like chapter eight, nine and ten. I was like, shit, should I change that? Are people gonna be like me and only get to six and just close it? finish it and go, my god, I actually don't have to do things the way I'm always like bleated on in the internet, whereas I feel so

pressurize to do so many different things in business, I want them to close the book and go, I think I know what I want to do. And so that would be my like greatest if if my book could be a legacy, it would be to just find your lane and just not worry about what you're being told by a million different people.

Pippa Goulden (04:52)
Yeah, and that's something, so I've read the first three chapters and to be honest, I wanna read more. I think it's one of those books, it just flows. Something that really struck me with it, this is as an aside, is how un-AI it feels as well. Like, I don't know if it's because we're peak AI, aren't we, in terms of like all the content that we're seeing on socials and stuff. And it just feels so...

Mills (05:05)
Okay, good.

Pippa Goulden (05:13)
authentic and aligned to you. And obviously you talk about it from your own story, is, know, the way you've got to today is so interesting. But I think you've done a really good job of helping people to see how they can find their own lane as well. Like it's not about, I did it this way, so you must do it this way. think your whole thing is about finding your own way with it, isn't it?

Mills (05:30)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, totally.

And I bring in quite a lot of different clients. And what I tried to do is bring in clients who have like are in the same industry. So for example, I've got one client who teaches yoga instructors to become yoga instructors. I've got another client who teaches yoga instructors once they've qualified. There's they're sort of similar audience, right? Two completely different businesses. One sells courses that teach you to be a yoga instructor, one sells like 27 pound.

Passive kind of like digital products. And so I wanted to show like the difference, how they can make the same amount of money, more or less, doing completely different things within the same industry, within the same ideal client. And so that was really important to me to bring in, like, not just be like, you should do this. This is what I've done and this is how it works, which is what the internet basically says, isn't it? Which is why we get such shiny object syndrome when we see someone going,

You should just have a passive course because I've made a million. And you're like, my God, I should have a passive course. And then you've got someone else saying, You should do evergreen because I've made a million. You're like, my God, I should do evergreen. And it's just so difficult to understand which is right for you. And so the book I really try and like show you that there's other ways within the same industry. But also what is the thing that you like? What's the thing that, you know, is going to help you to actually enjoy the business that you run? and so yeah, so I do audits at the end of each chapter to really help.

that not just read some stuff but actually then go, Okay, how does this work for me? How do I implement it?

Pippa Goulden (07:01)
Yeah, and I think that's what I love about it is that you're taking the advice and the insight that you've had from all of your years of experience and all your years working with different people, but you're allowing the reader to then apply them to their own business, which is so important. And that's something that I see so much in my world from a PR perspective is that people think there's only one way to get PR for your business, which is press. And for some people, that's not the right route for them. And I'm very much as well about aligning your PR.

Mills (07:25)
Mm.

Pippa Goulden (07:29)
with how you approach your business and how you want to get known in a way that works for you. And I think the should word really stood out to me in the chapters that I read because I think we're bombarded all day, every day, aren't we, with formulas and ways of doing things. And I think what's really interesting about the stories that you bring out in the book is that the people who tried doing it in the way that they were told,

it didn't work for them, did it? And it was only when they actually looked at how they wanted to work that they kind of had that success.

Mills (08:02)
Completely. And looking at the like I I talk about every time you do something i because you think you should, you lose a little bit of yourself. And it's really difficult when you've done so many shoulds to actually know what the fuck do I want? Like what what even why am I even doing this? Because I should do it this way, I should do it that way, and I've done it and it hasn't worked, and then someone else has. And so what's wrong with me? And why is this not working? And

There's so many different different things within our own inner compasses that kind of navigate energy and navigate how how we work best. And so as you said with the PR, it's like, you know, someone who's amazing at communication and talking, they should maybe look at looking at, you know, podcasting as their PR way, rather than, you know, going to magazines or newspapers or whatever, or someone who's

Pippa Goulden (08:54)
Yeah.

Mills (08:54)
very charismatic, you know, wants to look at going on TV. There's there's different things that align to your to your personality. And and that's I think we've got so much cookie cutter, which I know is a bit of an AI word now. But five years ago you could say cookie cutter without it being AI. It's like I know, it's like AI has actually stolen some of our English language and made it AI that now you can't even use it because people just go, that's AI.

Pippa Goulden (09:11)
You can have that one, it's fine.

Mills (09:22)
Words did exist before the robot. but yeah, so that that sort of like cookie cutter business, i I'm really anti that. I I'm just really anti it. And that's partly d just down to experience of trying pretty much everything.

Pippa Goulden (09:33)
Yeah, and I

think one thing that comes through really obviously in explicitly and also in just the way that you've kind of lived your life and how you've got to where you are today is that you are actively encouraging people to rip up the rule book, right? And that seems to come very naturally to you, but what would you say to people who actually it doesn't come naturally to them and actually that's quite scary, that's a scary concept for them.

Mills (09:48)
Yes.

Yeah, that's that's a really good point because it does come very naturally to me. I think when people are scared to not do it, is to ask what they think is gonna happen if they do, because it's usually an outcome that they are perceiving might happen. no one's gonna like me if I say that, or my family are gonna disagree with me. There's usually a reason why people do st stay quiet is I

I think everybody has an opinion. It's just whether you're brave enough to say it. Brave might not be the right word to use, but when you're not voicing your own opinion, it's usually because you're afraid that something bad is gonna happen. And so I would always go, Well, what is that bad thing? Let's let's take that to the end. What happens? And as you've said, I've heard you say it, people generally don't give a shit what you even have to say because they don't care about you. They care about themselves.

and so i it's it's I would say start you know, start small. You don't need to chuck a grenade in the room and see what happens. You can just start by saying what is it that I actually want? What is it that I actually think? What is it that I actually want from my business and believe? And just even if it that's an internal journal, that's a good place to start.

Pippa Goulden (11:15)
Yeah, I love that. You don't have to rip the whole thing up or burn the business down, do you? But I do think those little check-ins to make sure that it's still aligned with you and how you want to be running the business or whatever place of your business journey you're on, it's those regular check-ins to keep.

thinking is this actually working for me because we change and evolve, don't we? And what would you say though, so I see this quite a lot with the people in my world that there's a difference isn't there between not doing something because it's not aligned with you and how you want to build your business and not doing something because you're scared of it. How do we figure out which one is ruling us and whether it's the right one that's ruling our decisions?

Mills (11:55)
That's yeah, interesting because I would say that there is for everybody, but you just may have quietened it, this internal voice. There is an internal so if it is that you're scared of it, I would say then that's probably not very aligned with you. Like we don't i okay, let's take speaking on stage. Someone who genuinely feels sick, is sick.

does not want to do it is absolutely like every cell in their body is kind of reacting to the idea of standing on stage versus someone who has that adrenaline rush is is a bit nervous, right? But knows that they're they're able to cope. I would say those two people, I wouldn't suggest to the person who's being sick to push that. I would just say trust what your body is telling you.

I'd say to the person who's like, I feel a bit sick and it's a bit adrenaline. Yeah, I'd be like, you know, do you you know, is there is there gold at the end of the rainbow? And so there is an internal, there is something internal that we sometimes, because of noise, don't listen to. And so don't push it. If it basically if you are scared, don't push it. There's like being out of your comfort zone, great. Being freaking terrified, not so great.

Pippa Goulden (13:05)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

But,

I think it's maybe what I encourage people to do is to expand the comfort zone. So rather than dip dive straight onto the scary stage, maybe it's actually doing a podcast or talking at a small event or doing something that doesn't feel like it's so huge for you because it's like a muscle, it? And once you like stretch it and push it and do whatever you need to do to it, it becomes a lot easier. So trying to go for the big stuff at the beginning and sometimes

Mills (13:20)
Yes.

Pippa Goulden (13:40)
too much and actually if you can build up to it you might find it kind of easier to approach it.

Mills (13:47)
Completely. And actually I have a client, or she's not a client anymore, but I had a client who wouldn't even want to in a group call unmute herself and speak because she was like, Fucking hell, you know, spotlights on me. That feels too much. And it wasn't like, Okay, now go off and go on stage but it was like, How do you want to work through this? She was like, I really do because I don't want this and so that started with like, Why don't you go to

Toastmasters, which I don't know if you're familiar with, but it's like a there's a Toastmaster everywhere, like in every sort of town. And you just go and listen to people speaking and you learn to speak. And that kind of thing is like that's pushing yourself out of your comfort zone, but not throwing you onto a stage to do it. And so there's some things in business and life where you go, This is debilitating. It does scare me, but I don't want to still stay in this space. And so then again it's like, okay, let's work on that muscle. it's a baby step.

Pippa Goulden (14:42)
Yeah, I think.

Yeah, it's figuring out what's the thing that's holding you back from it, isn't it? then, if it's because it's a business decision that doesn't make any sense for you, then absolutely. But if it's just because it's making you feel a little bit uncomfortable, then you need to look at why that is. And actually, like you say, is there gold at end of the rainbow? Sometimes actually being uncomfortable for a short amount of time is actually way more important in getting the benefit of it the other

Mills (14:54)
Yes.

Yes.

Pippa Goulden (15:13)
end.

Mills (15:14)
Completely.

And I always think, you know, like that expression, like, you know, the magic happens in when you're out of your comfort zone. It yes and no, it does. But what I actually think the magic is, is that you feel really achieved that you've done something and that's the magic. it's a bit like if we talk about cold water swimming, which I really enjoy. There's a you you know, when you even I've done it for years, I still don't love jumping into like, you know, four degrees. I'm like, no, this is gonna be fucking cold.

But I feel amazing at the end of it. And so each time I do it, I'm sort of like giving my s my my body and mind validation this works, this is okay. And so when you're out of your comfort zone in business, the magic is that you've achieved something. And that's yeah, that's always a good thing.

Pippa Goulden (15:58)
Yeah, definitely. One of the things in the book as well you talk about is building systems in your business that support you rather than suffocate you and I think that's really interesting. you, I guess that goes back to the shoulds a little bit, but can you tell us a bit more about that in bit more detail?

Mills (16:13)
Yeah, I think with the systems and maybe I'm coming from a place of I'm a little bit further down the line. So to me it's like so obvious to have support. Doesn't always have to be support that is a team or a VA or a copywriter or who whatever it is that you need the help with. Systems can come in systemising your workload and I think that is so important from day dot.

To try and implement so that the structure of your business isn't relying on you to do absolutely everything because I think that that takes the joy out of most day to day, it just takes the joy out of everything, doesn't it? And sometimes that system could just be having a really slick calendar booking link, and you'd be surprised at how many people don't necessarily even have that. and I I I've got a

great client and we we she's in she features in the book and I laugh about it. It's like to book she's changed now, but to book a calendar would take like two days because we go back and forth, back and forth with emails, can't do this, can't do that. And it's like, why don't you just get this calendar link? And it's like, what? my God. And it completely sort of revolutionized part of her admin. So systems I think systems are really important to start with at any it doesn't matter what level you're at. There's always a system that can help you to

Pippa Goulden (17:34)
Yeah, and

I think it's funny, isn't it? Because when you read your intro and all the things that you've done in your life and you've been a scuba diving instructor and you've done lots of crazy different things and you talk about being woo and using astrology and all of this stuff, but also what I love about you is that that is all married in...

business sense and like systems and things that maybe you might not think that somebody who's wooed and using astrology would actually implement in her business. And it's really interesting because I think you can have the two sides of the coin, can't you, when it comes to that stuff.

Mills (18:10)
Definitely. And actually my business has really gone in a different direction in the sense that I'm very much about what's the system for sure, the structure, the strategy, the business strategist. But I'm also really about like, well, why are you repeating that same pattern? Why do you keep doing that? And so I think they're just they work perfectly when it comes to growing a business. So then therefore, outside of that is things like

being an astro l like like liking astrology and human design to make decisions, but also having a really good automation. I love it. I'm like, you need both. You definitely need both. But if you looked at my I'm not that systematic. Like it's it is slightly chaotic. Like if you look at my desktop, there's just folders fucking everywhere. Literally it's just like a mess. And where's my husband? He's so

Pippa Goulden (18:45)
Yeah, absolutely, that's great.

Mills (19:01)
logical and he works in tech. He's just like it's there's just nothing on his desktop. And I'm like,

Pippa Goulden (19:07)
I mean,

it sounds like we're married to the same person and we are the same person because yeah, I mean, it's very similar. But I call it organized cares because I know exactly where something is if I need to find it. Yeah, it just, yeah, exactly. It's fine. My inbox, my best friend sees my inbox and she's like, how could you deal with that? I'm like, because like.

Mills (19:16)
Same. Same. And that's what a great search bar is for, right?

Pippa Goulden (19:27)
Getting to inbox zero for me, I wouldn't achieve, that doesn't mean anything to me at all. Whereas some people are like, that's like, you know, the key thing that motivates them. like, I don't care if I've got a load of emails in my inbox.

Mills (19:39)
god, literally

same. I'm just I think my inbox has got something like forty six thousand. And I'm just like, so what? Like I wouldn't care I wouldn't even notice if it had zero. It just I wouldn't.

Pippa Goulden (19:48)
Yeah, but I think that goes

back to the rebellious leader and everything that you talk about in the book is that it's about the systems that work for you, right? Like you spending two weeks clearing out your inbox is not going to be beneficial to you, is it?

Mills (19:56)
Yes.

It's not gonna change anything. It's just literally not gonna change

anything. There's zero point.

Pippa Goulden (20:06)
And

one of the things that comes through because you share these lovely stories of your clients and people kind of running their business is that and The women who it's like tell me if I've got this wrong but the women who have really stepped into running their businesses in a way that is aligned to who they are that you know, they've they've maybe tried someone else's method and it's not worked for them and then

They go, okay, well, I'm gonna free myself of the shoulds and I'm going to do it in a way that works for me. Tell us more about why that happened and how, can you give us some practical advice about how to start thinking about that for our own businesses?

Mills (20:44)
Yeah, I think I think we've all probably fallen into the trap. Again, another word that I feel I can't say 'cause it sounds like fucking Claude. Yeah. We've all fallen into a trap of thinking that a s solution, mentor, program is going to be the answer to us scaling.

Pippa Goulden (20:53)
The Quiet Trap.

Mills (21:06)
becoming multi seven, eight, nine figure coaches, service providers, whatever it is that you do. And you go, yes, I'm buying that. And then you buy it and actually it doesn't take into consideration your business. So I'll give you an ex I suppose I I work better with examples. Let's take the 10k month myth. Great, once you get to 10K months, everything's, you know, you've made it, but you haven't.

it's you you have different problems to deal with, your profit is probably still not brilliant. It might be, but you're probably to get to ten K months have had to have invested in certain things and but if you are a breath worker selling sessions for seventy five pounds a go, to get to ten K months, you have to sell I think it's a hundred and seventy seven, but I don't don't quote me 'cause my math is really bad. You have to do a hundred and seventy seven sessions a month.

And so you're like, how am I going to do that? And so sometimes it's about going, actually, the promise of what it is that you've been sold isn't relevant to you or your business. So what is it that you actually want? What is it that you want to do? So looking at then how can we achieve that in different ways without you having to, you know sell your soul and be, you know, be

be dead because you just can't do a hundred and seventy seven sessions a month. And I think

We need to consider our own businesses before thinking that there's going to be this big change. And so I would say for your own business, it's like what do you what do you do? What do you what do you you know, where is there gaps in your income? Where can you look at doing something maybe a little bit different if so let's just take the breathworker, could you create a practice that you actually teach people to do breath worker?

That might bring you in 10K months, but it might not, but it might. Or is it that actually I'm I'm okay with not earning 10K months because I don't want to work 177, you know, sessions a month? What what is it that I want? I I I feel it's just about being more dissecting your business more to understand where you can can make more or where you're happy with what you've got. I think happy with what you've got is also something that gets

blindsided by these big cash months that are talked about a lot. You know, I don't think I want to be the kind of business owner who is let's take the yap lady, right? 'Cause that's kind of relatively

Pippa Goulden (23:35)
I'm just thinking about her, that's

so funny,

Mills (23:37)
I you know, absolute kudos. If you can do that, like absolute kudos. But for me, if I think about that or making that kind of money in a short space of time, I'm not sure it's what I want. And so I'm okay to say I don't I I'm actually really good to just earn eighty nine you know, have a revenue of eighty nine K a year and go pick my kids up from school or you know, it's hot so I'm gonna just

Pippa Goulden (23:50)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Mills (24:05)
do this podcast recording, then I'm gonna chill out on the on on my sun lounge or whatever. I just I think it's just about finding that individuality that is you and being okay with that. And so

Pippa Goulden (24:09)
Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah and I think

the more that you are doing that work

and realizing what it is that you want, what the type of business you want to build, all the other elements that come into you building this business from a life perspective, the easier it is to create a business that is aligned with you. And I think probably, I mean, I'm not a coach and I'm not doing the work that you're doing, but I only know from my own personal experience that actually when I went to, I first started working with a coach who you've also worked with, and I thought I was going for business strategy. Uh-uh, it was not that at all.

all the mindset stuff and it was the figuring out who I am, who I want to be in this business and that was the most powerful thing for me really in terms of unlocking things for me that I hadn't really ever considered It wasn't like I needed to spend a huge amount of time on it. This work doesn't actually require hours and hours. It just requires you thinking about things in a slightly different way, doesn't it? Yeah.

Mills (24:47)
Mm. Yeah.

Yeah, definitely. And just being honest with yourself and blocking out the noise. So it's again,

it's like I'm you know, the idea of being rebellious about that is just because you're going, actually it doesn't have to be done that way. Thanks very much. I'm gonna rebel against you.

Pippa Goulden (25:15)
Yeah. Yeah. And actually...

Talking about the Yapp lady, so this for if you don't know is a lady called Jessie Jean. She's sold a course on Instagram teaching you how to talk on Instagram called, she's kind of termed it Yapping. And she had her first $1.2 million launch like in the matter of weeks. And now apparently I think she's just done it again, cause she's like launched it for a second time and she's done another million dollars or something. It's quite phenomenal what she's achieved. I'm not discrediting.

anything. What I find really interesting about it is it's like the herd mentality of god I'm not talking on Instagram I need to talk on Instagram I'm gonna buy a course that is going to teach me to talk on Instagram when actually is that for lots of people it will be beneficial and it will help them get do you know do whatever they need to do but my feeling is that often with these things is that we jump into them because it's the shoulds because

she's talking on Instagram and making loads of money from it, therefore I should be doing it, that's how it's going to be like a silver bullet for me. When actually, if you're not talking on Instagram and you haven't been talking on Instagram, it's probably because it's not aligned to how you want to show up in your business. And so therefore, we're kind of chasing these solutions that aren't maybe the right thing for us. yeah.

Mills (26:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Completely. If you

haven't sorted out who your ideal client is or what your offer is, there's no point yapping. No one's gonna buy from you.

Pippa Goulden (26:39)
Yeah, no, no. And that's

exactly what I find with Get Known, which is like my signature six week sprint and it's kind of infiltrating my Get Known framework, comes through all of my areas of my business. Until you know what you want to Get Known for.

All of that other stuff is more difficult. So when we do the work with the positioning and understanding the key things that people want to get known for, your content gets easier, you have the subjects to talk about, your marketing gets easier because you've done that work upfront, jumping straight into a yapping course before you've done any of that work, it's still going to be hard to find the things to talk about,

And yeah, it's just, it's so interesting to see how you can see these, kind of movement of people going, you know, together. It's like, do the work first, you know, anyway.

Mills (27:22)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And the bat jump jumping on the bandwagon, you know, that sort of it's like FOMO, isn't it? You're like, my God, if I don't do this, then I'm gonna be left behind. And so therefore I'll do it. And like kudos to the one or two people that are at the top of that that are benefiting. I e, you know, she's done a you know, absolutely, go for it. Go for it, go for it, go for it.

Pippa Goulden (27:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah? Yeah.

Mills (27:46)
I would be interested from a NLP perspective. Like she must have done a lot of work on herself to be able to hold that and then hold it again.

Pippa Goulden (27:55)
Tell me, is there anything else about the book that you think we should know?

Mills (27:54)
Yeah.

That's good question. I think what I've tried to do is I've tried to weave in not just client stories, but like weave in so that you get to know a little bit about me and my family. So at the end of each chapter, I do a back home at headquarters and I relate to whatever I've been talking about in the chapter to how that shows up in family life.

Basically my wh poor husband is just like semi roasted throughout the whole book. And he's the total opposite to me. Like he doesn't ha doesn't he doesn't A doesn't use social media. B he hates having his photo taken, whereas I'm like, Yeah, sure, take a picture of me. Come on in. and he I said to him like, once I'd written everything, I said, By the way, you feature quite a lot And he was like, What? And I was like, Well you feature quite a lot And he was like, You haven't asked my permission I was like, I know

Pippa Goulden (28:46)
Hahaha

Mills (28:47)
I know I haven't. And then I sort of read bits that I was sort of describing him and he was like, what are you doing? Like everyone's gonna know all this about me. Like you just you're too you just you're too like exposing basically. So I think it's really funny. Like I genuinely laugh. And so yeah, so there's there's there's elements of like it not it's business but it's it's kinda humorous.

Pippa Goulden (29:09)
But

all I would say from that is it all makes sense to what you're talking about within that particular chapter. So the family stories are really relevant. Like when you talk about Sadie's bedroom and how it kind of makes you go, and then you realize that your desktop is the same, but that's her system for her bedroom and that's your system for you. I think the family don't like.

Mills (29:25)
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (29:31)
The family stories are inextricably linked to the message that you're putting across and it works really, it's a really clever way of doing it. I think it's really, really good. I love it.

Mills (29:35)
Completely. Yeah, completely.

Yeah, thank

you. I really I and that sort of came about by accident. It was just I started with one and then I was like, maybe I could do this as a bit of a theme and there were some chapters that I've s struggled to think of things and so when that happened I just sort of I'd I'd just go for a walk, I'd let it go and then I'd think of something and be like, yeah, actually that's quite relevant And like I'd tell a story like of the difference between George and I when we

When we moved to it's it's a it's in the chapter that's all about winging it and how winging it just can't be a strategy if you want to actually scale. But I am like the queen of winging it. I can just and it's a it's a skill, right? You can just pivot and get shit done without too much thought. And George and I were leaving Thailand. We'd lived in Thailand for quite a while and we were moving to Egypt and we both went out in well, we were together, obviously, we went out in Bangkok on our last night and we got absolutely shitfaced.

And we were hanging the next day and we had to fly to Egypt. And I had with me about a thousand pounds worth of Thai baht in cash. And I was like, right, should we change it now in the airport into either Egyptian, you know, either d probably dollars, right? We were like, fuck it. Let's just do it when we get there. And which is what we did. And we got to Egypt. We landed in Cairo and I walked up to the

bureau de change and I was like, Hi, can I change this money into dollars? And I looked at the board and I was like, that's weird. They've only got Dubai, like that there was like four things. It was like American dollar, Dubai Rand or whatever it's called. And I was like, it doesn't say Thai bar anywhere. And basically they just said it's not it's not a currency. And so I was fucked.

And we had like no credit card. I it was just such it was chaos. It was pure chaos. And it was like that was my highlight of like when winging it works until it really doesn't. And yeah. I actually had to end up flying to the UK. I was going to a wedding, so it was okay, but I I flew with this like thousand pounds worth of bar, met my mum at Heathrow who chain who gave me basically a like gave me a thousand pounds, took the money, like like literally like drug dealers.

Pippa Goulden (31:31)
Ha ha

Swaps. Yeah,

Mills (31:50)
Take it with a suitcase.

Pippa Goulden (31:51)
yeah, not a great business strategy there, but something that we can all learn from. I love it. And just quickly as well, I wanna talk about the PR for the book, because obviously this is a PR podcast, and I think it's been really interesting watching you do the PR and how you've approached it. So whilst we're recording this, are like, it's coming out around the book launch when the book's out, because obviously.

Mills (31:54)
Definitely, definitely.

Yes. Yes.

Yep.

Pippa Goulden (32:12)
so people can go and buy it but

Mills (32:13)
Yes.

Pippa Goulden (32:13)
we're like pre-launch at the moment so how have you approached the marketing and PR for the books I think it's really interesting.

Mills (32:21)
Yeah, that's been really s slightly out of my comfort zone actually. so with the marketing and PR, I have obviously p sort of asked f around podcasts. I found that having contacts is my best bet. So I think that's like with life, isn't it? It's like it's using your network. Yeah. Yeah, completely. If you don't ask, you don't get.

Pippa Goulden (32:38)
It's using your network, right? It's starting there and building out. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Mills (32:45)
and I've been very good at just talking about my book to people. I've managed to get a couple of PR pieces through some people that I know, so through them within my network. But then actually just in terms of like I'm doing a big book launch, I'm making it very much like a big celebration. at the moment there's about 70 people signed up, which is great. I think there'll be more, but they may, you know, whatever.

I'm gonna do supper with the author. So I'm gonna try and encourage people to share my book in as many fun places as possible, you know, suitcase on holiday, that kind of thing. Tag me, share it. tag someone that they think should read it. I have been I've I've been talking as much as possible in my marketing around subjects that come up in my book.

So that I'm steering people towards this excitement of like, when's the book out? Let's, you know, let's launch it. and that's probably about as much as I've done. I have definitely found where I said I was out of my comfort zone is like that outreach for me is quite unusual thing to do. And it definitely requires some thick skin. Where you're like, I haven't you know, why is like

Pippa Goulden (33:49)
Yeah.

Yep, definitely.

Why don't

you want my book?

Mills (33:58)
Why don't you want

me to come on your podcast? I've I've contacted like various quite big podcasts and obviously they just, you know, don't know what they're missing. and so so I think it's just a case of going, it doesn't matter. Like I don't care about no's. I liter I'd actually rather a no than a ghost. Like I'd I'd just rather someone says no, thank you. But also just going, Okay, it's a timing thing. I'll just keep on keep on I'll go back to them.

Pippa Goulden (34:14)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Mills (34:22)
It's like applying for a job.

Pippa Goulden (34:22)
yeah,

Mills (34:22)
My daughter's applying for a job at the moment. She's six sixteen and just like a you know, whatever, a Saturday job and she's got loads of nose. I like, It's fine, just apply next month. Just keep going.

Pippa Goulden (34:29)
Yeah, yeah, because there'll be

something out there, absolutely. And I think the thing that you are doing really well with the pitching and the stuff is you're being specific, right?

And what I'm seeing at the moment, and I've just actually started talking about this, so by the time this comes out, everyone would have heard me whangy on a lot about it, but what I'm seeing at the moment is what I've called passive visibility, where people say they want to get visible, but they're kind of waiting for it to happen to them. So a load of people this year, visibility's a buzzword, they have said at the beginning of the year, this is the year I'm gonna get visible. And then they've basically gone, okay, I'm here to get visible. And they haven't actually done.

Mills (34:40)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Pippa Goulden (35:08)
anything proactively about being specific. They might have like gone into a community and said, I want to be on podcast this year. If you want me to be on your podcast, let me know. Or, can anyone connect me to people in corporate or journalists or something? But you're, but, they're not actually saying, I would love to come on your podcast to talk about my new book that is out in July. And these are the things that I can talk about that will be of benefit to your audience. And that's the difference. Does that, do you see what, what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah.

Mills (35:31)
Yes. Yeah, totally, totally. Being as specific as possible. And I

think with that is that is like an overriding marketing message, isn't it? If you're generic about what you who you help and what you do and your offers, no one buys. If you're specific, suddenly you're getting attention. And so yes, I I think specificity around the book and not just relying well, even though you said it was one of the best front covers you've seen, which I totally agree with.

Pippa Goulden (35:40)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Mills (35:59)
I can't just rely on that. I can't rely on my front cover to do the selling. I have to actually say this is gonna help your audience and these are the subjects that I wanna talk about. Are you interested?

Pippa Goulden (36:01)
No.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah, absolutely. And for anyone listening, a book is a great conduit to opportunities, right? It just works really well. What people often get wrong with book PR is thinking the book is the main thing and it's not. It's your expertise that has been packaged into a book and the byproduct of that is by the book.

Mills (36:22)
Yes.

Pippa Goulden (36:30)
What you are offering is insight, expertise, knowledge, stories. That's what your pitch is not, I've got a book. Can I come on your podcast? Does that make sense? Yeah.

Mills (36:38)
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So

my biggest hook for PR has been around the lie that we're sold that business equals freedom. And we even though I agree with that, there is this element that a lot of us start a business because we're like, well, I want to, you know, pick the kids up from school. Let's just take that as an example. I want to be able to run a business around my kids and so therefore that's gonna bring me this freedom. And yes, you can, but I think there are so many things that pull us away.

From our original idea of like, this is free. It's not free. It's bloody hard work to build a business. And although I'm not poo-pooing the idea that there is freedom, there is always gold at the end of the rainbow. However, let's be realistic about a few things. And, you know, that that's that's been my sort of main hook to try and have a conversation with people.

Pippa Goulden (37:24)
Yeah.

Yeah, and

I think that's a really important conversation to be having because yes, it might give you freedom in terms of flexibility of where you can be and when, but you're still gonna be on that school run going, my God, I didn't send that email to someone or, yeah, yeah, no, yeah.

Mills (37:40)
Yeah, you've got mental ment no mental freedom when you're like

Pippa Goulden (37:43)
Totally or you're on that Sun Lounge ago.

We're all having a lovely time, you know, but actually when I get back I really need to focus on XYZ or all you have ideas when you're when you're actually at your most free like is when I'm like, my god Why haven't I ever thought about doing this and then you're like, Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah

Mills (37:52)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, right. Exactly. And actually, it's okay to be like that as well. I think at

the moment in the online space, there's so much almost guilt that if you're not off, then you're not working, you know, you're not doing it properly. And it's like my brain doesn't really ever switch off. I can be, you know, chilling on a beach.

And still thinking about, that's a good idea for a workshop. And that's okay. I'm okay with that.

Pippa Goulden (38:22)
Yeah.

Yeah, but I'd rather be thinking about an idea for my own workshop than my boss is going to tell me off for something or whatever. Like, you know, yeah, I think that's such an interesting point about freedom and what actually is freedom. And yeah.

Mills (38:29)
Yes.

Yes.

what actually is freedom. Yeah.

and yeah, and I think that part of going back to the book cover, because that's caused quite a lot of hmm conversation. And loads of people said, why have you covered your face? And I I haven't. I've covered my mouth. And I was like, well, because, you know, I'm basically saying we've been silenced for so long and

I have all these reasons why I've done it, but not everybody gets it. And so I was like, Okay, could that be my talking point? You know

Pippa Goulden (39:02)
Yeah. Yeah.

Mm.

Mills (39:09)
It goes into like being in the patriarchy, it goes into the fact that we're sort of like these good girls that just have to get on and do things and and you know, no one's allowed to actually voice their opinion. And then I was like, Do I use that as my sort of hook? But I decided, no, I was gonna not do that. actually that was something from you said, Don't rely on the book cover. And so I thought what

Pippa Goulden (39:12)
Mm.

Mmm.

Yeah, because it's

beautiful, but it's not like it's not the con it's not the conversation is it we couldn't have talked for this long about the book cover. Yeah

Mills (39:36)
It's not the conversation, no. About the book cover. No, absolutely

yeah, good very good point.

Pippa Goulden (39:41)
And also no one

would have been that interested, like as beautiful as you will have to go and look at the book cover because it is amazing and it would make me, what the book cover is gonna do for you is it'll make people buy because it will draw them to it and that imagery is so strong and it will be a really good sales tool for you but it's not a conversation. I mean you can have a little conversation, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've wrapped it all up. well listen.

Mills (39:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. But it's not a yeah. Yeah, it's not a long po it's not a full podcast. Yeah. Yeah. There we are. We've wrapped it all up. That's that's a perfect, perfect example of how you need to be specific.

Thank you. No, thank you so much.

Pippa Goulden (40:10)
I'm wishing you so much, like you don't need it, but you know, it's such, I love,

honestly, I can't actually wait to read the next chapters and I will of course be buying it myself, But yeah, well done, I'm very proud of you and see you soon.

Mills (40:18)
Yay.

Thank you.

Thanks, Pippa. Yay.

Yay. Thank you so much.

Pippa Goulden (40:28)
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Mills, she is magical at what she does and I highly recommend getting hold of her book, the link for it is in the show notes as well as all the ways that you can get in touch with Mills and if you want to do PR for yourself whether you've got a book launch or anything else that you're wanting to do to step out of the shadows and get known for what you do then you're in the right place. You can work with me in my one-to-one accelerator, in my DIY PR membership and my get known sprint which will be back in the autumn.

Find out all the details at theprset.com and follow me on Instagram, Pippa the PR Set or Pippa Goulden on LinkedIn. And I will see you again soon for another episode of PR Made Simple.