Please note this transcript is generated by AI - sorry for any mistakes!

Pippa Goulden (00:43)
Liz Mosley is a brand and design expert for small businesses offering a range of done for you and DIY services. She is also the host of the brilliant building your brand podcast and the creator of the utterly brilliant rejection challenge, which we will be deep diving into in more detail because it is exactly what you need to hear about today.

So welcome Liz to PR Made Simple. In own words, because I've introduced you, tell us what you do and what types of businesses you work with and how you work with them.

Liz Mosley (01:16)
Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me. So yeah, my name is Liz Mosley and I'm a branding designer. So I create visual identities and I mainly work with small business owners. So often, you know, like one person businesses, maybe a very small team, but I also do other things as well. So I host a podcast called Building Your Brand, which is all about branding and marketing. I also do live streaming, public speaking, lots of different things.

But I would say that everything falls under the umbrella of helping small businesses with their branding and marketing. So whether that's me doing it for them or teaching them how to do it themselves.

Pippa Goulden (01:55)
similar to me in the PR space but you're doing it from a branding perspective. But I actually first discovered you and I was just before we came on air I was telling you about my stalking for you because I discovered you because I heard about your rejection challenge and I thought this is something that I like the sound of and it's very aligned with everything that I teach from a PR perspective but can you tell us a bit more about it what was it, how did you start it?

Liz Mosley (01:59)
Yeah.

Yeah?

Pippa Goulden (02:23)
Yeah, tell us all about it because I just love it so much.

Liz Mosley (02:27)
So it all started, I think it was actually about two and a half years ago now. And basically I was at a conference and this guy called Christo was there and I met him briefly and I thought, you know what, I'm gonna, well, first of all, I bought his book and I did that classic thing where I shared it on Instagram stories and tagged him and he replied. And I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna reply back and ask him if he'll be on my podcast.

And he replied and asked a few questions, basically how many downloads I had, and I told him and he said no to being on my podcast. And I sort of like got over that or whatever. You know, like I think what was interesting to me at the time was what emotions came up for me about it. I was at a conference, so was in a hotel room. I wasn't like sobbing in my hotel room, but I was embarrassed about asking him because he'd said no. And I felt like...

a little bit, I think a little bit of shame, you know, like, oh, I asked this like really famous person to go on my podcast and they said no. And it was like, obviously it wasn't public, so it wasn't that big a deal. But a few months later, I was like reflecting on how I think there'd been someone else I wanted to ask on the podcast. And I caught myself thinking, oh no, I asked Chris Stowe and he said no, that didn't feel good. So I'm not going to ask this person. And then I suddenly had this like slight light bulb moment where I was like, hang on a second, how many opportunities am I missing out on?

because I had this like slightly negative feeling and I don't wanna have it again. So now I'm not asking anybody. And so I am very goal orientated. Like I love setting myself challenges. So I had a friend called Katie Chappell who had done something similar. She called it the much nicer no thank you challenge where she sort of went out pursuing.

knows from people basically. think quite a lot of people have done it. There's also a really good Ted Talk. I can't remember the name of the guy who did it but he did it think more in his personal life and I guess it's kind of exposure therapy. So I set myself this challenge to get 100 rejections in six months and I started documenting the process and sharing it with people. You know everything is content and all that jazz. So that's kind of how it started. So was all from a rejection on my podcast.

I made a long list of, I wanted to make sure that I had enough things that I could pitch for to actually do the challenge. So I made a long list of things. A lot of them were podcast related, because I was really sort of focusing on growing my podcast. And yeah, and then just set about pitching for things. And then it was really interesting to sort of see what happened off the back of it.

Pippa Goulden (04:55)
What did happen off the back of it?

Liz Mosley (04:58)
Well, I have not yet completed the challenge because so two and a half years on I haven't completed the challenge. Far more people said yes than I expected. So lots of incredible things happened. The other thing that I wasn't expecting that happened is because I was putting myself out there and I was more visible and I think probably showing up more confidently because I kind of had this attitude of like, everything's a win. I don't really care what happens. I think that

probably changed how I showed up. Actually, more people started coming to me with opportunities. So then they weren't even things that I could put on my rejection challenge. So like one I can remember really specifically, I'd made a list of podcasts I wanted to be on. And one of them was called Being Freelance with Steve Folland. And then he just emailed me and was like, do you wanna be on the podcast? And I was like, well, yeah, but you've ruined, I can't pitch to you now. So stuff like that kept happening.

And then ultimately what then happened was I had all these amazing opportunities, some that I'd pursued, some that had come to me and I just couldn't keep up with it all. So I really had to scale back what I started asking for. So I'm still going with the challenge, but at a much more leisurely pace. I just make sure that I keep documenting. I'm trying to make sure that I keep having that attitude.

that I went into the challenge with. And what was really interesting to me actually when I started it was the change in my mindset was immediate. Like I thought it would be something that would come slowly, but actually because I'd gamified it, I'd immediately turned it into this kind of like fun thing for me. It was kind of like a win, you know, there wasn't like no lose scenario for me. And obviously one thing that I think I always want to clarify with this is it doesn't mean that the rejections didn't sting. So I don't think you can ever just

like get over that aspect of it but I recovered from them so much quicker so whereas in the past I probably would have mould them over for days I would have turned the rejection into this big story about what it meant about me you know like that I wasn't good enough that people didn't like me that I was bad at you know what I did and all this kind of stuff I sort of managed to nip that in the bud a lot quicker

So yeah, it's not like you get over rejection completely, but you just get so much better at dealing with it. And I think it's that classic thing, isn't it? It's like, well, what do you do with that then? Like, what do you do next? So that was where it really helped me.

Pippa Goulden (07:28)
It's so, I just love it so much. think there's a couple of things I think is really kind of perceptive from what you've talked about is, yeah, the rejection.

It still happens and it still affects you, but you've learned how to deal with it. And I think a lot of this kind of small business entrepreneur thing is mindset, isn't it? It's not saying you just need to change your mindset. That's it. Because things will still affect you. But it's how you then react to those things and how you then kind of pick yourself up and keep going. That is what's made a real difference with this, isn't it?

Liz Mosley (08:00)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, I always sort of joke with people because I think running your own business is really exposing. It's almost like like constant therapy where you're you're faced with like who you are and what you're like. And I think for me, a big part of it is like learning how my brain works, trying to find ways that I can like work with that and that I can, yeah, I guess like make things fun for myself, make things easier for myself.

So yeah, think a big part of it is mindset, but it's gonna be different for every person, like what that looks like.

Pippa Goulden (08:37)
And so how many rejections are you on now? Are you keeping a list?

Liz Mosley (08:39)
So I knew you were gonna, I am keeping a

list. I feel like I might have forgotten a couple of them. So I think I'm up to about 55 pitches, which is still really low because like I said, things keep coming my way. So it's massively slowed me down. I say that like a negative, which is great. I'm very happy about that. And then I counted up the rejections.

and I think I'm on about 28, 29 rejections. So I'm slightly higher, slightly over 50 % rejections. But like, don't you think that's such a good rate of yeses? Like well over 40 % yeses. I was like, oh yeah, I'm really chuffed with that. cause I thought it would be much higher on the rejection and then maybe like a few thing yeses would come through.

Pippa Goulden (09:16)
amazing.

amazing and also it's 40 % conversion but that's not including the stuff that's then come to you as a result of stepping up and putting yourself out there. So actually if you added those in it would be way swinging over the other way. I mean it is, it's so impressive. I think also actually what I like about this as well from my perspective because I...

Liz Mosley (09:35)
Yeah exactly. Yeah I haven't counted those.

Pippa Goulden (09:50)
obviously teach people to do their own PR and one of the things that we talk about a lot is just having a strategy and it feels to me like although this was like for you it was like right let's go out and get a hundred reductions it was also focused on what was going to work for you in your business so you have had some sort of you know you knew you wanted to grow the podcast so and has that strategy changed whilst you've been doing the challenge?

Liz Mosley (09:55)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. think, like at that time it was very podcast focused. I've gone through phases, like one of the things that I've been wanting to do is more public speaking, so I've pitched to speak at more events. So yeah, I just adapt it for whatever my focus on in my business is. I didn't do much pitching for design work.

interestingly and that to be honest I was thinking about this the other day like maybe that is the next mindset block that I need to work through but I actually think it's more because it looks a little bit different pitching for design you can't do a cold pitch exactly the same way because it's more like you know you know do I have the right design style for the particular job that you're doing but I have I have come up with some clients that I'd like to pitch

So I think that will probably be a bit more of a focus for me in the second half of this year. So yeah, I think that's it. can like, depending on what your goals are in your business, and you probably say this the same as I do with branding, you know, like I think it should always come back to what your goals are. know, like what your branding is helping you achieve a goal. Your PR is helping you achieve a goal. Like if you did decide to do this challenge, it would be helping you achieve a goal. So I think it's good to always be clear.

on what those are and yeah, they might change at different points in your business. You know, like for me, now I've had a run of higher profile guests on the podcast, for example. So actually, you know, like approaching people feels less scary, it changes over time.

Pippa Goulden (11:51)
Yeah, absolutely. And so you've got on quite a lot of podcasts, haven't you, over the course of the Rejection Challenge? And in general, with the things that you've been doing through it, can you see the impact it's having on your business?

Liz Mosley (12:03)
Yeah, definitely. Well, just let me tell you a quick full circle story, which I love. I actually pitched, so Christo said no to being on my podcast. I did this challenge for a year and then I pitched to him to be on his podcast and he has 2.5 million YouTube subscribers. So this went up as a video on his YouTube and I think he gets 20,000 downloads per episode of his podcast, which is way bigger than mine. So it actually worked out way better for me to be on

his than for him to be on mine. So that was really like a real nice full circle moment and he actually when I first started talking about the challenge I never said who it was that I'd asked to be on my podcast but as soon as I told him I felt like I could then tell the full story and he loved it and we had a really good chat about it and you know talked about what I learned through the process. So that was that was really cool.

These things are hard to quantify, right? But I do feel like there was a real shift in the sort of opportunities that I was getting. where I was being asked to speak, the podcast that I was being asked to be on, I feel like if there's like levels of opportunities, it took me up a notch or two, which was really nice. Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (13:13)
Yeah

and I would say that I quite often talk about the snowball being having to push up the hill and it's a real like it's hard isn't it at the beginning and then something happens and there's like a tipping point and it feels to me like you've massively experienced that tipping point where it's not just you going please have me please have me which is totally fine and you know that's something that we all need to do but also people are now coming to you saying we want you which is really nice when that happens isn't it.

Liz Mosley (13:32)
Mm.

Yeah, I

think so. I think it's that classic thing of like you're less of an unknown entity. you're less likely to get a gig at a high profile public speaking event if you've never done public speaking before. So you kind of have to work your way up the ladder. And I think you're totally right. It then starts to snowball. People start to see you in more places. You're like fresh in their mind. So yeah, I definitely think it's helped with that. And I feel like, you know, there's still...

so much more that I can do. I think the way that I think about it is, this sounds really negative, like rungs of discomfort. So I hate the whole step out of your comfort zone messaging, because I think it lacks nuance, because we're all, you know, like we're all working with different things, right? So there's a lot of privileges that allow me to step outside of my comfort zone. But I think the way I think it is like the next rung of discomfort.

So once I've got used to something, it's like, okay, well now I feel safe enough to then push myself to the next rung of discomfort. And actually thinking about it like that and thinking of discomfort, rejection, failure, and all of these things as just a normal part of my everyday business life, like this is part of my creative process has really helped me because then it becomes something that indicates to me I'm going in the right direction rather than something.

that sends me into a panic of like, no, I can't do this.

Pippa Goulden (15:11)
Yeah that's really aligned with what I teach as well because you know yeah push yourself out of your comfort zone but actually start in your comfort zone because otherwise you'll never get started and it becomes quite elastic doesn't it and the more comfortable you get doing things but if you've if you've been told that you're awful at writing and writing is like a big fear of yours then I don't recommend starting to pitch yourself to write articles for somebody because you just won't do it and then when they ask you to do it you're going to spend the next two weeks

Liz Mosley (15:18)
Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (15:39)
absolutely like sitting there worrying about the whole thing so yeah start with the things that you enjoy don't I don't recommend staying there for too long and feeling too comfortable but if you don't start with what is going to you know light your fire and get you going then there's no point doing it.

Liz Mosley (15:48)
Yeah.

And I think it's, you know, like that's a really good example. It's like, it's almost like just deciding to do the thing before you're to do the thing. So, you know, like I didn't wait to be asked to be on podcasts. I started my own podcast because then I had a whole bank of evidence that I could do this thing and I would make a good guest. And I think with writing, you know,

Like write your own articles or blog posts and then people start to see that. But also you feel more confident in your abilities to do it. And I think, one of the big lessons that I feel like I'm learning at the moment is, and it's hard, is being okay with being a beginner. And actually often...

when you are a beginner, not many people are watching, so you can just try and experiment and learn. So I'm doing this at the moment with YouTube. I've got like barely any YouTube subscribers. I'm trying to post content there. And I am finding it horrible because I know it's not up to the standard that I want it to be, but I also know that to get it to the standard that I want it to be, I've just got to do stuff. And I think that is like a big part of it as well.

Pippa Goulden (17:00)
Yeah and everybody starts somewhere and I actually interviewed somebody last week for the podcast who is now a well known, well respected media go-to within the cancer space but you know she started with a few thousand followers on Twitter it wasn't like she suddenly just decided to do it and turned up and was on Lorraine you know it's been it's been years of incrementally doing a bit more here doing a bit more there and then it snowballs doesn't it. So is there one

Liz Mosley (17:02)
Mmm.

Yeah!

Hmm.

Pippa Goulden (17:27)
specific thing that's been like the highlight of the rejection challenge or is it just the accumulation of it all and how it's all leading to more exciting things?

Liz Mosley (17:37)
there's one thing that isn't directly, it wasn't something that I pitched for, but I definitely think the whole attitude of this got me there. three years ago, I went to a conference called Adobe Max, which is a big creative conference in the US. And I remember thinking at the time, like one day I would love to speak at this and I have

just been asked to speak at the London version, which is happening in April. And that is like a step up in terms of size. I've never spoken at a conference that big before. So that feels really good. So that was a big thing. I think for me, the one that I enjoyed the most was going on Christo's podcast just because it was this really sort of beautiful, full circle moment. And his profile is huge. That was really good for me.

But one other that stands out in particular was one of the ways I thought I was going to smash this challenge in like months was by trying to get sponsors for my podcast. I was like, I'm going to get so many rejections. This is, you know, this is going to be easy. I'm going to rack them up. And basically the top of my list of sponsors that I wanted was a company called Flowdesk who do email marketing. And they said yes.

like straight away and so then I just like this didn't go how I expected and the thing that's interesting that's been interesting with that with the sponsorship is once that you get a couple of big name companies it does I mean it's not it's still not that easy but it's still you do start to notice that it then gets easier and again it's it's kind of going back to what you said that snowball effect you know like that once you've proven yourself

to one company than other companies interested. So those sort of three are probably like highlights from it.

Pippa Goulden (19:24)
was just it's all so brilliant I just love it so much and when it comes to the actual pitching there's a couple of things I wanted to ask you so how have you decided who to pitch to who to to get try and get a rejection from and what is the process like what are your tips from that you've learned along the way there

Liz Mosley (19:41)
So I think I've actually learned the most about what I like to write in a pitch from people pitching to be on my podcast. So I've had like a real mix of pitches and that's really helped me refine it. so at the start I made a list of the things I wanted to pitch for. I then went onto LinkedIn and I tried to find the right person to contact.

Pippa Goulden (19:49)
Yeah, totally.

Liz Mosley (20:04)
I don't know if this is like sketchy advice, but one of my bits of advice that was really helpful is if you can't find their email address on LinkedIn, which often you can't, you can often Google the email naming convention for their emails. So, you know, like it might be that company, it's like surname.firstinitial.com. So for quite a lot of people, I guessed what I thought their email was.

did get responses, so that worked pretty well. But I think documenting everything, making a list of what you want to pitch for, keeping this list of emails that you've then got, because you can always follow up, even if it's years later, you can try again. In terms of the actual pitches, I am a fan of an email pitch. I think that is usually the best way to go. I did occasionally...

on a whim, pitch people in DMs. So like if an opportunity came my way, I tried to be much better at just grabbing it in the moment. You know, like, so if I, if like someone I'd wanted to have on the podcast happened to reply to something I posted on Instagram, like if I tagged them, then I would like use that as kind of like my opportunity to go in and I try not to think about it. I try not to wait until I have this perfectly formulated pitch. I just try to grab that opportunity.

In terms of tips for pitching, I think, I mean the word is so overused now. Like authenticity in a pitch is so important. So I think just really trying to make it clear to the person that you do actually care about what they're doing, know about what they're doing.

I get loads of pitches from people on my podcast who are like, I really love what you're doing, but they don't follow me. And so I'm like, and this sounds so petty, but I'm like, do you really love what I'm doing? Because you don't seem to. I think it's that classic thing, isn't it? Your words don't match your behavior. So I think for me, just trying to be as authentic as possible, doing your research, getting the person's name right, being really polite.

The other one that absolutely gets me as someone who receives pitches is the number of people that don't really tell me anything about themselves and don't give me a link to where I can find them online. So I basically expect to me to go and Google them and dig around trying to find the relevant information. And I just don't, I'm just not gonna do that. So I try and make it as easy for the person to say yes. like...

You know, like, let me explain to you exactly how I imagine this working, but I'm open to other options. You know, here's links to where I've done something similar. You know, here's my website. Like, just put it all there for them. Not in an overwhelming way, like you have to keep it concise still, but just making it so that they don't have to do any extra work. Making it an easy yes for them, basically. And yeah, that means more work for me, but it's worth it if I get a yes.

Pippa Goulden (23:02)
Yeah and that's what I always say as well that that extra work it reaps the rewards on the other side so you're much better off sending five really well crafted emails than you know 50 bcc just really generic ones and I get them too I get them for the podcast I used to edit a publication and I use them as examples of what not to do because they literally just delete like delete delete delete you've not thought anything about who I am what I talk about you know and it's really frustrating it's such a waste of

Liz Mosley (23:22)
Yeah.

Some

Pippa Goulden (23:31)
time.

Liz Mosley (23:32)
of my favorites are where they've used, they've created themselves a template, which is not a bad thing, but just make sure you double check your template. And they've not filled some bits in. So like I've had ones where it says, I really love episode, and then in brackets, mention episode here with, and then it was just like blank. then I...

so cheeky. like reply and I'm like I'd be really interested to know which episode you loved and who it was with because they just haven't even bothered to fill the information in. So yeah I think, you do have to do the work ultimately and that is partly why I had to slow down on pitching because it does take work and I wanted to do a good job because they were things that I cared about

Pippa Goulden (24:02)
Yeah.

Yeah.

have you found a difference in, guess pitching style might change, but in the response from people whether you had a relationship with them or you were going in cold, has that made a difference? Yeah.

Liz Mosley (24:26)
Yeah, I think that definitely makes a difference.

And I've experienced that from both sides. I've definitely noticed when people pitch to me to be on the podcast, if I recognise their name because they've interacted with my content, say on Instagram or LinkedIn or wherever, I'm much more likely to take their pitch more seriously or, you know, like give it a proper good consideration.

because I feel like I have a bit of a relationship with that person. And so yeah, I think it does make a difference.

Pippa Goulden (24:58)
Yeah, I mean I wouldn't say don't pitch to people because you don't have a relationship with them but there are things that you could start doing now to get on their radar.

Liz Mosley (25:01)
No.

I think so.

I think just like do it in a, again, it comes back to that authenticity, right? You know when someone slides into your DMs and asks you like a really aggressive question, you know that they're like priming you for some sort of ask. I think networking, especially like online, you kind of just need to be doing it all the time because you never know when that.

might be useful for you. So like I'd much rather you know someone comes along and like chats to me a bit, replies to some of my posts and that goes on for a while and then they pitch because that just feels so much more authentic than if they suddenly appear everywhere and they go straight in with a pitch. But I would totally agree with you like I there's loads of people that I've pitched completely cold and again I think you just have to

think about how you then word that pitch so it doesn't sound, sleazy or gross. Yeah. Yeah. Grabby.

Pippa Goulden (26:02)
Yeah, sleazy and also grabby. I think people

get it wrong when they want it to be all about them. I always talk about trying to forget your own agenda when you're pitching to someone. Think about what it's exactly.

Liz Mosley (26:09)
Yes.

Yeah. How is it gonna help them? Yeah,

totally. And I love that, know, like when people pitch to me, here's why I think this topic would be really helpful for your audience. that's them spelling out to me, like how it's gonna benefit me.

Pippa Goulden (26:28)
I love this, this is literally everything that I teach so it's absolutely very aligned.

audience react to this slightly shift in your approach to doing things when you were like celebrating your wins because I think one of the things that often I see small business owners do is they worry that people are gonna think that they're getting too big for their boots or you know all of that kind of stuff and it's not true is it?

Liz Mosley (26:51)
Aww yeah.

No it's not. I mean that is something that I genuinely worry about a lot like all the time. Yeah and I am really conscious of like how things come across.

Pippa Goulden (27:01)
Do you? Interesting.

Liz Mosley (27:07)
So I do have friends where I'll send them a message and I'll be like, well, I think the tone's gone wrong on this. Like, I'm not sure this is coming across how I intended. And sometimes they'll be like, no, it's totally fine. Sometimes they'll be like, yeah, I think you just need to reword this thing. So I think it is good to think about it, but I think, well, I think the thing is, because so many people don't talk about their rejections and they don't talk about their failures, you we see so much of the glossy side of it.

I think people were just really relieved because, and this is partly why I wanted to talk about it, because I look at so many people and I just assume there's no way that this is happening to them. But what I have realised, everybody is going through this. Even the people, you know, like who are the most famous of famous who you really look up to, like they all have stories of rejection and failure.

Pippa Goulden (27:35)
Yeah.

Liz Mosley (27:56)
And I think that was the biggest shift for me is like, okay, everyone's going through this. It's okay for me to share it. So like I did have people who asked me if I thought it'd put clients off by talking about it. And I personally don't, mean, again, I mean, it's very hard to verify this, but I don't think it has in the slightest. And I've had so many of my clients actually, who've had amazing things happen. And then they'll just message me. I'll usually message them and be like, wow, that's amazing. And then they'll be like, actually.

It was because of your rejection challenge that I pitched for it. So it's actually influencing my clients in a positive way. that is the thing that I didn't anticipate is how many people would then be inspired by it, go have a go and then message me, which I love and be like, so, you know, I have wanted to speak at this conference for ages, but never had the guts. I decided to just go for it and pitch and now I'm speaking, you know, like so I've had so many messages like that of incredible things that have happened to other people.

Pippa Goulden (28:40)
my god.

Liz Mosley (28:53)
just because I started sharing the challenge.

Pippa Goulden (28:56)
I love that because it's not just impacting you in a positive way, it's having a ripple effect on so many other people and that's collectively, know, the good people will rise up if we all do that together and that's why I'm so passionate about working with small business owners. So what would be your top tips for people to just get going with it? Like how do we get over the overthinking? How did you get from that place from...

Liz Mosley (29:08)
Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (29:22)
god I'm so sad that he's rejected me to write. I'm gonna do it. Like how do we how do we take those first steps?

Liz Mosley (29:29)
think definitely try and make it fun for yourself. So one thing that I've done this year is I made a rejection sticker chart to like take it to the next level of fun. so when I started the challenge, I invited Katie, who I mentioned I got the idea from onto my podcast and we chatted about both of our experiences of doing it. And that was something that came up in our chat, you know, like, would it be fun to have a sticker chart? So I eventually managed to do that. So I think just anything that you can do to make it fun.

Pippa Goulden (29:35)
I was coming onto the merch.

Liz Mosley (29:55)
is really, really helpful. Like, just don't take it too seriously. I think one of the big mistakes people make is, and I find myself slipping back into this, is thinking that once they've asked, that's the end of the story. And so in my head, like often, it's better to just never ask because then it's always this potential in the future. Whereas if I've asked and they said no, it feels like that can never happen. I think you have to get over that and think,

I have collected, I guess, over my time doing this challenge, lots of stories of people where they have been turned down multiple times and then they've got a yes. And so think we need to reframe that. try, if that is something that's stopping you, if that's where you're overthinking, try and just think this is part of the journey. Like you will learn so much from that rejection, that failure that will help you the next time you pitch it. I think the other thing is

just get really scientific about it. Think of it like data. So I had my little spreadsheet, I made a list of all the people and it was very much just like ticking things off the list. I wasn't getting too attached to any one thing. I think if we put all of our energy into there's this one thing I wanna do, it feels overwhelming. Whereas if you've got a list of a hundred things, it's not so much of a big deal if 50 of those say no, but 50 of them say yes. So I think...

Like volume, you must have this, you know, with PR. Like I think volume definitely does help. Because there's always going to be new opportunities as well. I think it's that sort of like lack mentality, isn't it? Where you're like, this is the only opportunity and if I don't get it, like this is the end. There's always new things coming up and new opportunities. So I think those would be my main tips.

Pippa Goulden (31:41)
Yeah and I think that makes a lot of sense. for me personally, I tend to work with quarterly targets because I know which bits are really going to shift the dial for me from a PR perspective so I focus on those and I have kind of targets that I want to set myself so I know that if I've got say five or whatever it is podcast interviews a quarter that's me set up on those so then I'll go to speaking ops and then I'll go to the press kind of which would be my like the last thing that I do but equally I know some people work better like focusing on

Liz Mosley (31:52)
Mm.

Nice.

Pippa Goulden (32:09)
one thing so they might focus on podcasts one month and then press opportunities the next. So I think it is learning how you work best because there's so many different ways that you could cut it up and like you say the list is never-ending but it's about doing it isn't it and it's taking the action. How do you personally do it? So I try now to do 15 minutes a day where I've done at least one thing where I'm you know doing something positive for my PR. How do you carve out the time in your working

Liz Mosley (32:17)
Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (32:39)
day week month to do this.

Liz Mosley (32:42)
found now that I don't have to be quite as intentional about it, mainly just because I've got myself into the habit of almost like consistently doing it without thinking about it so much. So I feel like I'm much better at just like grabbing opportunities when they come

I'm definitely deadline motivated, so if it's a thing that needs to be applied for, that definitely works much better for me.

Pippa Goulden (33:05)
There's

a theme with all the things that you're doing here, isn't there?

Liz Mosley (33:07)
I know, yeah, exactly. It's like how to hack

my probably undiagnosed IDHT. Yeah, so I think, so I'm not as intentional, but I love that idea of doing 15 minutes a day. I think that's really helpful. Definitely like documenting everything has been a game changer for me because I just find that really motivating to then be able to go and see what's happened. And it means that I don't then spiral into

everyone's rejecting me because actually I've got cold hard facts in front of me that that's not true,

Pippa Goulden (33:40)
I mean it's quite amazing isn't it that an idea that you had in a hotel room after somebody said no to you about something has led you down so many different opportunities and now you've got your own merch. I mean this is amazing.

Liz Mosley (33:52)
I mean, I don't think I'm going to expand into any more merch. It's going to be like a one-off,

one-off thing. I used to actually have a product-based business before I went fully self-employed alongside my in-house design job. And I forgot about having to post orders all the time. So now I'm a bit like, yes, I need to go to the post office regularly.

But yeah, no, it's been fun. I really like having the sticker charts. It amuses me to be able to do that.

Pippa Goulden (34:22)
But it's also something that I talk about all the time with PR that I think people who are focused on very like data-driven sales tactics find PR quite hard to get their head around because it can lead to so many places that you just can't predict and you can't necessarily say well I'm gonna start this hundred rejection challenge and end up in all these places but if you hadn't done it like all of these amazing magical brilliant things just wouldn't have happened to you.

Liz Mosley (34:46)
Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, even if like I hadn't had all of those amazing things happen, I feel like I would just have got so much better at dealing with rejection. So from sort of sustainably, it would have just helped me carry on and keep asking for things. So it genuinely was like a real sort of win-win scenario.

if I hadn't processed how I felt in that hotel room, like you said, and then spun that and turned it into something positive, this stuff wouldn't have happened. But I think we all have those moments where we can take something. And it comes back to that thing you don't necessarily get to choose what happens and how other people behave, but you get to choose how you then respond to that and whether it's going to be.

like a growth opportunity and a learning opportunity or whether it's gonna be something that sends you into a spiral. And I have definitely had plenty of spirals in the past, but no, exactly, no, totally. And I still have them now, but because I've been through it more, I'm like, okay, I've felt this before and actually it all worked out okay. You like you can talk yourself down, down from the spiral a bit more.

Pippa Goulden (35:42)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean we're not saying spirals are totally gone out the window now but you know, yeah.

I love this so much. how can people find you and work with you and all that kind of stuff?

Liz Mosley (36:10)
So yeah, my website is lizmosley.net. You can find my podcast, buildingyourbrand.net. And on social media, I'm at Liz Mosley. There's like an annoying extra in there. But yeah, that's how you can find me. yeah, like, yes, there's still some available. They're on my website. They're up in the top menu if you just go to lizmosley.net.

Pippa Goulden (36:26)
And are the sticker charts still available to buy?

Liz Mosley (36:35)
So you can get a sticker chart and stick little orange smiley faces on whenever you get rejected.

Pippa Goulden (36:40)
And I noticed

on your blog you're still updating it aren't you on the rejection challenge like it's an ongoing thing that you're doing yeah

Liz Mosley (36:48)
Yeah, I'm still

doing it. I've got a bit lax at sharing as much content about it. So I need to do like bit of an, every now and then I'll do a podcast solo episode where I'm like, okay, this is where I'm up to or a reel or something. So I need to update the numbers for everybody. But yeah, I mean, I think I'm going to be doing this challenge for the rest of my life, to be honest. No, I'm determined to get to 100, even if it's like, takes me 10 years.

Pippa Goulden (36:56)
Yeah.

You're not getting away from it anytime soon, that's for sure.

Amazing. thank you so much. It's been so insightful and I know that for listeners it's gonna be incredibly inspiring because we overthink and we don't take the action and this is just such a great example of what happens when you do the do and send the fucking email as I say. Thanks. Bye.

Liz Mosley (37:33)
Yeah, love it. Thank you so much for having me.

Pippa Goulden (37:39)
I hope that conversation with Liz has inspired you to take on your own rejection challenge because as she's shown you it's highly likely that you won't actually get rejected in the first place so go on please put on those big girl those big boy pants and start getting yourself out there because it's that taking action that really makes a difference for your business as we heard from Liz and if you want to find out more about Liz you can find her at Liz Mosley online

social media and her podcast is building your brand and if it's inspired you to keep cracking with your own PR you can find me at the prset.com I'm Pippa the PR set on Instagram and Pippa Goulden on LinkedIn and you can use the code pod50 to get 50 % off your first month in my DIY PR membership or

find out more about my one-to-one accelerator and wait list for Get Known which is coming very soon, the second cohort of that will be launching in the spring and I am so excited about it. So yeah, come find me Pippa Goulden all over the place and I am looking forward to hearing how you are going to start getting rejected. Let's do it!