Pippa Goulden (00:45)
it's Pippa here. Just before you dive in, in this episode, we discuss breast cancer research, treatment and awareness campaigns.

Pippa Goulden (00:55)
Liz O'Riordan is, and I don't say this lightly, one of the most incredible women that I've had the pleasure of working with. A breast cancer surgeon who is now an author, podcaster, speaker, cancer authority and go-to expert and the epitome of resilience and someone who is thriving through adversity. I'm going to let her tell you her story as I won't do it justice, but as someone who appears regularly in the press, on TV and all sorts of other PR routes, she is a shining example of someone who has used PR to build her profile

get known for what she does and somebody who we can all learn a lot from. So welcome Liz to PR Made Simple. How are you?

LIz (01:33)
I'm good Pippa, the sun is shining, it's not raining, spring is on the way, I know.

Pippa Goulden (01:36)
Finally, it's

here. So let's jump into it. I'm going to let you, as I said, can you tell us your story? You were a leading breast cancer surgeon and then what happened?

LIz (01:46)
So it was 2015 and I was 40 and I found a lump and I never checked my breasts and that lump ended up being a stage three breast cancer. And suddenly I had every treatment my patients had, chemo, mastectomy, radiotherapy, the works. And I realized I knew nothing about breast cancer and I was in denial. It couldn't be happening. So my husband said, why don't you start a blog? And I started writing a blog and I started talking a bit about breast cancer on Twitter.

And it really resonated with not just patients, but healthcare professionals. Cause I was trying to be honest and not exaggerate and tell the truth. And that led to me being invited to do a TEDx talk in, Stuttgart. and that kind of led to people asking me to talk about my experiences. And then I started talking to another doctor, having breast cancer at the same time. And that led to us writing a book and it's kind of been this.

unfolding journey of learning how to be a doctor in other ways. Because in 2018, I had a recurrence on my chest wall and surgery side effects meant I couldn't operate anymore. So I lost my job. And then my cancer came back locally last year. So I've lost my career, my status, my independence, purpose in life. And I've somehow found a way to keep going and find other ways to help people in a nutshell.

Pippa Goulden (02:56)
Yeah,

in a nutshell, a very quick nutshell, but it is quite amazing how you have had horrendous things happen to you and lost your job and which I imagine was quite a big part of your identity, but you've been able to then use your knowledge and your experience, which is quite unique, to pave another way for yourself. How have you found that?

LIz (03:20)
It was really, really hard in the beginning. I was 43 and I was suddenly like, when people retire, why do you get out of bed in the morning? How am I going to fill my days? Chemo made me infertile. I don't have children. What am I going to do? And I think it was a sense of boredom that drove me to kind of look at writing or doing videos on Instagram, just as another way of seeing, I help someone? And one article would lead to another and one talk would lead to another. And I suddenly found I have a purpose.

And I'm privileged because healthcare professionals will listen to me as a patient and a doctor. It's very hard for patients to get in front of their audience. So trying to represent the thousands of voices who share me their stories and say, look, how can we change patient care for the better? And this is going to sound really weird. You don't get what an impact you're having when you're in your tiny house in Suffolk just putting stuff online. And it's only when someone stops you for a selfie in an airport, you think, this is really strange.

Pippa Goulden (04:16)
I can imagine because you're just doing you're putting your output out there aren't you but you're you must I mean you must get a feeling from the the response that is that you get from individuals as well and and the stories that they tell you back.

LIz (04:19)
Yeah.

Yeah. And it's

incredible when you get comments from people in Nigeria or Brazil or Cuba. And actually I can reach a million people globally with one video compared to the hundred women I might have treated as a surgeon. And it's just lovely to know that you are making a difference.

Pippa Goulden (04:43)
amazing. And how have you found that journey from kind of the next phase of being this kind of go-to advocate expert? How have you decided what to do? Because you've got a podcast, you've written three books now, you have done all sorts of different things. Are you doing this strategically or are you seeing what happens?

LIz (04:58)
Yeah, three books.

There is no strategy in it at all. And I think the problem is I'm bored and I say yes to everything. I like the blog, I like the writing, and I knew I wanted to write a book, because I bought 20 books written by patients. So I wanted to write that one definitive guide that would answer all the questions I had. And I really liked researching it. It was like back in my PhD days. And I discovered I love writing. And that led to me writing my memoir, memoir and the next book just to keep writing.

And I also love getting on stage and speaking. And I think for me, it's as close as I can get to the operating theater. I've got a room full of people all listening to me and I can make them laugh and I can make them cry and I can make a difference. But then I discovered to get my memoir published, you have to have a social media presence. And at the time Instagram was just hedgehogs and sewing my own clothes. He said, no, you've got to be talking about cancer. So I had to learn how to do Instagram.

And that kind of led to YouTube. And then I thought, well, everyone's got a podcast. I should have a podcast. And I think at the minute I've spread myself so thin, I can't nail everything and there's no time for me. And there's no strategy. It's just saying yes to stuff. And I'm now kind of stepping back and thinking, right, what is actually making me money to pay for all of this? Cause I don't work. What do I really, really enjoy and what can I let go? And the doctor in me, the surgeon in me wants to be the best at everything. And it's kind of realizing that I can't define success as

100,000 followers or 60,000 views. It's helping people, but I can't help people in every way. So I'm kind of at that point of what do I let slide? What do I not? And it's really hard. So I'm thinking there are so many podcasts out there, so many, it's hard to get the sponsorship. And think actually I could just let that slide. And then someone says, but when's the next episode coming out? Oh, I can't let you down, but I don't have time for everything. So I think that's where having no business sense, no business training, no strategy, just doing this can be a downfall.

because there's no grand master plan. until I spoke to you, but it's just, you just do stuff and then think, what's your plan for next quarter? What's the quarter? Do I need one?

Pippa Goulden (07:05)
Yeah, I think that was really...

Insightful wasn't it when we started working together. So Liz and I worked together Towards the end of the summer and September. She did my one-to-one accelerator where we were focused on using October which is breast cancer awareness month as a bit of a Marker in the sand for you obviously from an expert perspective and then you also had the second edition of your book coming out at the same time So they work really well together obviously from a news perspective and I think there was something

LIz (07:09)
Yeah.

Mm.

Pippa Goulden (07:34)
wasn't there about taking everything you've done and all the various different things and then starting to be strategic about the approach. And I think something that I think we should talk about because I see this a lot with people who've come from the NHS or from places of service, where they come into the private world and they find it really hard to monetize it from a, know, psychologically. My mum was a social worker and she

she

started a independent social work practice and she had exactly the same thing because you've been brought up in this whole system where you're taught to give for free and then suddenly there's a place and you know it's really important that we know it's okay to make money we have to make money don't we you're not you don't have that day job anymore and I think that was something we talked about a lot wasn't it about working out which routes actually were going to work for you from a financial perspective.

LIz (08:17)
Yeah.

No.

Yeah, because as a doctor, you work for free, you're paid a salary, but you don't know what your time is worth. know, I'll spend 200 quid to have my hair cut and coloured and that's fine, but I can charge that for my time. And women, I think it's harder for women. I don't think we're very good at blowing our own trumpet or saying this is what I'm worth. And no one talks about how much they are charged or how much they are being paid. So when someone says they want me to quoted an article, you know, think of a figure and double it.

Is that first figure 10 pounds or a thousand, but we have no idea. And you just feel so bad. And you'll often accept a low number and they'll say, yes, without realizing you could have doubled it because you don't know how to bargain or market or pitch yourself and you don't have the context and you just feel like you're going in blind and you're expected to do stuff for free. And especially as a patient. It's like, hang on, I've had cancer three times. That comes with a cost to me. You don't get my experience for free, but then you think if I don't do that for free, then I won't get the next talk. And it's...

It's like writing a talk and take two or three days to write and practice in rehearsal. And there's a time away from home and they say, no, come along for free. And it was a really important lesson to learn to value what you do and actually charge more and do less for things that make you feel good than reaching for the low hanging fruit. Now I'm established, but yeah, it's really hard.

Pippa Goulden (09:45)
Yeah, I think there's something that we talked about as well in that you are giving a lot away for free because you have the podcast and you have the blogs and the social media exactly so it's then okay to charge for the speaking opportunities and that kind of thing. I do think there's something though in you've got to push the snowball up the hill first haven't you? You've got to do certain things to get established to show that you can do the talking and stuff.

LIz (09:50)
Yes. Everything's free.

Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (10:11)
It's not necessarily always the way that you're going to be able to jump into the paid opportunities straight away, and I think there are things that you can do Working with the right brands and the right partners that where you're both benefiting from it think when it becomes incredibly one-sided and there's a brand who's making an awful lot of money from you getting in inverted commas exposure Then obviously that's not that's not okay But especially when you're starting out. I think there are opportunities there to grab

LIz (10:18)
Yeah.

Yes.

Pippa Goulden (10:39)
to help you.

LIz (10:40)
Yeah.

And I've, it's really interesting Pippa. I've kind of reached this tipping point on Instagram. I'm just 80,000 followers now where People in the States know who I am and you get a lot of crazy brand deals coming through. And as a doctor, I don't want to sign up to anything I don't use. I don't want to be that person who's vlogging nappies to get a load of money. That's not me, but they'll say, Hey, can we give you a free dose of our product and we'll get you to do for videos for us.

or will give you great exposure. like, well, exposure doesn't pay the bills. And actually my audience is really, really important. And you want to give me 10 quid for making a video. And it's really hard to step back and think, no, actually I'm a business and there's lighting and all that kind of stuff. But the stuff they offer is ridiculous and it's terrifying. So this is an American brand asked me to promote a longevity supplement to help you live longer. They obviously don't know who they're going to, because I'm not a supplement person, but they said, but we've...

Our research has proven that on this organism, and it's a one-millimeter nematode that doesn't have a brain, it normally lives for four days, and when they gave it the supplement in a petri dish, it lived for six days, and they said, that's like running a marathon in two hours instead of four. And we've given it to people, and after 30 days, they said they felt better, so it's the, how does that mean that you're living longer? How can you prove they're living, and it's 100 quid a month? And they wanted me to promote this. It's just...

It's very scary world and you realize the celebrities promoting stuff don't use the products, they just want the money. It's all fake. a murky world and you just feel, I don't want to be seen as grabbing something, it's paid out, I'm doing this for the money and it's not genuine, because that's not the route I want to go down.

Pippa Goulden (12:19)
Yeah, and I think one of the things that really struck me when we started working together was how important that authenticity is to you and what you're doing and to your audience, but also how impressive it is because you have said no to so much stuff because it isn't aligned with you, but I think that's what's helped you to build that trust and it's what's so important about what you're doing, isn't it?

LIz (12:28)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, thank you. mean, it's I think most doctors are the same, but I'm very aware I don't want to become that person. And yes, I'd like the money and it'd be great. But I'm hoping by learning that I can charge more for speaking, but that would be better than a brand deal. And working with people who really, really do resonate with me and have my values, because not everyone's like that.

Pippa Goulden (13:04)
and it must be hard, it must be hard to say no to the shiny stuff sometimes.

LIz (13:07)
It is, it

is. it's like, so when people often say, you know, can we give you a free, I don't know, say a free scarf? And I said, well, actually I can afford to buy it. Can you give it away to my followers? Well, I'm thinking, well, actually you have had cancer three times and it is okay to accept free stuff. And it's that kind of guilt of kind of realizing you are still a cancer patient. You can accept free stuff if someone wants to give it to you. And I find that really hard.

Pippa Goulden (13:31)
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And the other thing I think is incredible about you is that you are calling out things a lot and you are raising your head above the parapet a lot and putting yourself out there for people to come back at you and that must be really difficult.

LIz (13:48)
Yeah.

It is. I think I've been thinking about how I do this that there were so I'm basically debunking cancer myths and crazy alternative therapies that kill people. And there were lots of reactionary videos where people go, my God, have you seen this? And this is nonsense. And I thought, I don't want to be that doctor that is attacking somebody's video. Cause that's not very nice of me to do it to them. I'm not going to ask them, do you mind if I take your video apart? So how do you do it? But when you call something out generally and I did this a while ago, there was an American MTV

a VJ, video jockey, who went down the alternative route and it hasn't worked, her breast cancer's come back. And I talked about this a while ago, just saying thank you for being so honest and saying it didn't work. And it suddenly raised a load of awareness in the States. And I've got all these people commenting on that post. And yes, I've got a million views, but I don't want them saying, I should be in prison, I should get a nicotine patch, go to jail, what do you think you're doing? How dare you call her out? And it's really hurtful.

and you don't upset anybody and you can't spend hours blocking and deleting and it takes a really thick skin to think half the people in the world are going to disagree with me and be vocal about it. And you try to think, isn't it sad that that's all you have to do in your day, but you just, it's horrible. I've had death threats on YouTube for saying that sugar doesn't cause cancer. And you think it's not worth it. I can't do this anymore. And then you think, no, I have to. And it's because anybody can say anything.

Pippa Goulden (15:14)
scary.

LIz (15:15)
It is. It's really unpleasant. I'm glad mum's not around to see half of it. That's the dark murky side of doing this. It's why I don't read the comments of stuff I write in the Daily Mail. And I get accused. How dare you write for the Daily Mail? But actually the health editor is brilliant and it's giving me a voice to get common sense in that paper. But then they target me and troll me. And it's just, you have to not care what anyone else thinks and believe you're doing the right thing. But it's easier said than done.

Pippa Goulden (15:41)
It is easier said than done, isn't it? But I think, yeah, there's ways, like you said, there's boundaries that you can put in place. And, you know, there are other journalists as well, I know that write for the Daily Mail for exactly that reason, because you're in an echo chamber if you're just writing for a publication that is, you know, read by people who are totally aligned with your thoughts.

LIz (15:55)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And they have

a huge audience. So if you have a book to shift, it's a great place to be. And like the Mail, the Express, the Sun, how dare you write for them? Well, it's a great audience. It's good for me. Don't have a go at me.

Pippa Goulden (16:11)
Yeah, totally. One thing that works really well for you and you know it's a shame that it isn't so but it's news agenda so when there is somebody who's going through cancer, I know when we first started working together I think you got on Lorraine in the first week which was nothing to do with me but it was to do with the fact that Elmett Fearson had come out and talked about her own breast cancer treatment and

LIz (16:20)
Mmm.

Yes!

Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (16:36)
Obviously that's quite an extreme example but I do think it's a really good way for people who are experts and have some sort of knowledge to see how what's going on in the wider world can actually help them to talk about what they do. So that's worked for you quite well hasn't it in terms of people knowing that you are a go-to when it comes to stories that are breaking.

LIz (16:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. And that kind of started by setting up Google alerts for breast, breast cancer, breast health, mastectomy. So I've got four or five words. So if they're in the news anywhere in the UK, I get a daily email. So often I can get that at six o'clock in the morning. And it's always on a day when I've got stuff to do, like the Elle MacPherson story. think, no, I've got, because I don't work, I've got the time I can jump on this. And if you can get a video out early, then suddenly journalists know you're the person talking about it. And then suddenly you become the person to do it. But it's really hard work editing and turning something out. But

by staying ahead of the news, it just means that you become that voice. And then you've got Newsweek in America saying, hey, can we do an article with your video? And it's that word of mouth, but it's putting in the hard work first. But the Google Alerts, I think is brilliant in your niche.

Pippa Goulden (17:40)
Yeah, that's a great tip and just keeping an eye on what's going on, whether there's new studies coming out or reports or something where I always talk to people about taking themselves out of the agenda. So it's not about you and your business or what you want to talk about. It's about what else is going on out there and how you can help the journalists to do their job reporting on it or talking about it on the podcast or whatever PR opportunity it is. So that's...

LIz (17:46)
Yeah.

Exactly. It's...

Yeah.

And then you

hope that will come back to you and people will look at you and think, she's got a book, I'll do that. And it's like you're giving away without getting anything back, but actually your voice is being seen by people.

Pippa Goulden (18:16)
Yeah, absolutely. And can you remember that tipping point where it went from you like doing the slog, putting yourself out there, getting in touch with the journalists to them coming to you? And it happens, doesn't it? And it's a bit of a time where you go, this is good. Can you remember that happening?

LIz (18:36)
Yeah,

I can't, well, there was, it actually wasn't anything to do with breast cancer. I think it was two years ago, I was doing some stuff. There's a lot of sexual harassment going on with female surgeons. And there's been a lot of stuff done by the Royal colleges. And because I've written about my own sexual harassment as a junior, I was one of the face of this. And it was literally a 24 hour media junket of being interviewed by everybody. But suddenly every journalist had my mobile.

And then whenever there's a breast thing, people are calling me if it's an unnamed number at like eight o'clock in the morning. it's BBC Radio Scotland. it's like everyone, how do they have my number? How does ITV have my mobile phone number? Seriously, what happened to data protection? But you suddenly realize when there's a story and I think it happened again, the Elle Macpherson and then again, last October, I started putting a bit out about people I'd never been to were like coming to me.

and you realize that people know you and you are that person. And actually I'm very lucky, most of my PR now is just word of mouth. People come to me because I've done that hard work to talk and report on everything.

Pippa Goulden (19:37)
think that's so inspiring for people to hear because often when I speak to people and they say they've tried PR but it doesn't work for them I'm like well how long did you do it for because unfortunately it is a long game isn't it it's not like I'm just gonna do it for a few weeks and you know see what happens you've got to be doing it and you don't have to spend a huge amount of time on it but it's incrementally sending a few emails making sure you're on the radar of the right people

LIz (19:49)
Yeah. No.

It is.

And I think so I've spent two or three years. I I started off with 5,000 followers on Twitter and nothing on Instagram, but I was mainly on Twitter. would write something almost every two or three weeks, just relevant to breast cancer, just to kind of educate people and thinking, it's, you know, how could, it's Mother's Day, but if you've had breast cancer, you can't be a mom, then I can help. But it's like, you know, what are the national calendars? How can I make content relevant to direct it back to me? And you get a little pick up here.

The books really help because then you get some PR from that and that does help raise awareness, But it's that hard work of just having enough content out there. So if someone Googles you, they can see what you've written, they can see you can speak well because you're good on videos. And then suddenly when you pitch, they know who you are. And you've got back content, you've got speakers where you've got stuff you can send them so they know you're not someone cold.

Pippa Goulden (20:49)
Yeah, you've made yourself discoverable.

LIz (20:50)
But I've learned you

taught me this. It's not, I get on TV? It's how can I help you? I didn't know how to pitch properly. I was scared and how you do an email. And actually the question is right at the very end. So actually learning, this is what journalists want to know. And it's like when people now pitch to be a podcast guest, I know, God, the emails are really annoying. Just get to the point. So I've kind of learnt.

Pippa Goulden (20:55)
Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah it's funny isn't it when you do start getting the pictures for yourself you're like I can see it's so obvious how to get it wrong isn't it? yeah people often think that they are, they want it to be about them but it's not, it's not about you.

LIz (21:16)
Yes.

No.

And I send the same pitch out to like five TV shows and actually they all need something different if they all say yes. So it's just that thinking, how can I make your life easier by giving you this in a box?

Pippa Goulden (21:34)
Well done, tick you can have a gold star Lesb.

LIz (21:35)
I know, thank you very much Pippa.

Pippa Goulden (21:40)
So we worked together, didn't we, on your profile was already there, but making sure it was more strategic in the run up to breast cancer awareness. Can we talk about that in a bit more detail? You did some great things that month, didn't you? I mean, obviously the month is brilliant for you in terms of, you know, it's what everyone's talking about. So you were on Lorraine, you then did some stuff in the States. What else did you do?

LIz (21:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

Yep.

Yes.

I was on Woman's Hour, I was on, I think, Five Live, I did some stuff with Colin Murray in the evening, I had articles in three or four papers, I was a podcast guest on several podcasts as well. I hate October. And I never prepare for it in advance, and I should have done this with you like six months earlier, because it's just, I need to clear the diary in October, because people want me. And it's, because it's hard for me, it's triggering as a cancer patient, but thinking, right, I need to have content to go all the way through the month, that is different.

Plus on Instagram, I ran a campaign to kind of lean on us, this with another friend. If you're finding it triggering, you can come to us to have a cancer free space. So it's that kind of helping everybody. But by targeting people and saying, hey, when you do a breast cancer thing, you come to me, I'm your expert. I'm available. I'm available. That's the key word. It really made it much easier than thinking I should be everywhere. Well, you're not telling people why you should be everywhere. Give them a reason.

Pippa Goulden (22:57)
Yeah, that's so...

LIz (22:58)
And I was sat on my laurels thinking,

everyone knows who I am. Why aren't they coming to me? Why is she there? And actually you do have to remind them about what you can offer.

Pippa Goulden (23:06)
Yeah and even once you have that profile it is really important to keep reminding people that you are still there as well. It's not just, I don't think we can ever really sit back and just say that's all going to come to me now you know I think it is and like you say it's being strategic around what is going to happen in the year. You know that there are certain times of the year obviously there's things that happen that you reactively but there are certain times of the year now that you can strategically plan your time around and also to protect yourself as well to give you

LIz (23:18)
I know.

Yeah.

Pippa Goulden (23:36)
the time around that time to be gentle to yourself.

LIz (23:39)
Yeah.

Exactly, and kind of learning what the lead time is for magazines and how I was in good housekeeping, but that was in January for October, because you don't know how the world works. So I think actually I'm creating a list of all my PL contacts, which I need to update because they were just random emails on the phone. And then it's like, no, actually you do need a list of all these people. So, know, an almost an organized Excel spreadsheet or something like that where I can say, okay, I've not contacted them in a while just to say hi, tell them what's going on. Because it does feel weird cold calling, but you never know.

Pippa Goulden (23:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. like I say, journalists, I mean, we have journalists come into my DIY PR membership all the time for meet the media sessions and they say, we want to hear from you. You we're looking for stories, we're looking for new things and especially within the cancer world, there's always change and new things coming out and new people and discussions to be had, isn't there? So yeah, I think keeping people aware of what you're doing is a really good thing to do from a strategy perspective. And since then, you've launched a book as well.

LIz (24:21)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I

have another one, I know.

Pippa Goulden (24:40)
on?

Tell us about it.

LIz (24:44)
So this one was really hard to write because I had some major life at Peebles during it. But it happened when I did a reaction video to a Instagram reel by two Irish brothers called the Happy Pair who did a podcast. And I now know podcast guests don't check. Podcast hosts don't double check what their guests say. You don't have time. You just assume what they're saying is the truth. And they had a gynaecologist on who said that mushrooms can cure cancer. And that was the clip. And I said, this is nonsense.

They didn't like that, but I went viral that my video was like in America and I was on good Irish radio. You can swear limerick radio is very, very different to the BBC. It was such a crack, but an editor from HarperCollins came to me saying, we've been thinking about writing a book about women's health and cancer. Would you be interested? And I said, yes. And it was just trying to explain what cancer is and what actually causes it why it happens.

and then explain what the differences between complementary and alternative therapies and why they don't work and what isn't going to cure you and why it comes back. So just generally myth busting and giving people the tools to spot nutribolic symbolism on Instagram when it's too good to be true and it's a glowing testimonial and give you your money back. And actually this is nonsense stop and think, but it was really, really hard because I didn't know who my audience was. And I think this is a real issue when you're creating content. You want to give people what you think they

want, not what they actually need. but it's kind of come together and I am so proud of it. I think I've learned how to explain science really, really clearly using simple terms and just to see people reading and saying, thank you. I get it. A 10 year old has read it, friend of mine, and it's just, it's lovely. And Lorraine gave me a hug when I was on telly. So this is it. This just blows my mind.

You know that you want the endorsement quotes from celebrities to try and shift the books. And I don't really know anybody. And I'm kind of reaching out to Instagram and charities and people. But I wrote to Lorraine Kelly's agent and Lorraine Kelly herself came back to me and read the book and gave me a personal quote and gave me a hug on telly and gave me seven minutes to talk about the book instead of three. And that's when you kind of realize the unseen impact of what you do.

If I hadn't have had those emails, I wouldn't have had four pages of endorsement quotes in the beginning of a book, but I was brave enough to do what you said and just send the email. Because if one person says yes and a hundred people say no, you've still got that one quote. And it's really scary saying, hi, would you endorse my book? But then you find this whole other community of people who know who you are, who want to help you. And that was like, wow, this is amazing.

Pippa Goulden (27:20)
Amazing. And you've done so much PR around the book as well, haven't you? And I guess there's been a build up to both book launches, but this book in particular, that people... Have you felt that this one's been a bit different because you've done all of that work to build up to it and people do know who you are more? Has there been a kind of shift there?

LIz (27:32)
Yeah.

Yeah,

I think my Instagram suddenly grew from about 30 to about 75, 80,000, which helped. And I'd got some traction in the States with YouTube. And it was all done by HarperCollins, but suddenly most of the contacts are coming through me. So, Lorraine want me on, can I give you their details? And the male want me to write an article, can I give you their details? And suddenly I'm telling the PR guy at HarperCollins, these are my contacts and this is what they want.

just by talking about it. So that's been really, really nice. It's been much, much easier. But it's still hard work because it came out on World Cancer Day, but you are suddenly thinking, right, okay, Wednesday is rare cancer day today. So bone cancer research trust, because my mum had bone cancer, but that's the reason to plug the book. And it's that constant reminder that you need to find ways to worm your way into every single piece of PR opportunity, because people get diagnosed with cancer every day, people have problems every day. And that's like the draining thing of

I have to push my books because no one else is. But it's been much easier having that profile.

Pippa Goulden (28:39)
Yeah.

Yeah, I can imagine. And something I want to touch on too is you as a speaker, because there are so many opportunities for you here with being a speaker, brand ambassador. Let's talk about that and the work you're doing there. And also, I think what's also we talked about a lot was you can talk about lots of things. It's not just cancer specifically, is it? I mean, look at what you've achieved and what you've done.

LIz (29:04)
Yeah.

I know. And I think most of my speaking gigs have come through word of mouth or someone's heard me talk and it's really hard. I've got a great speaking agent, but again, most of the talks are people coming to me and it's knowing how to introduce yourself to the right people when you can't afford someone to video you to get a speaker reel. So I think it's been really heartbreaking into that world and knowing how much to charge and you can get very jealous of TV medics that have got their own agents.

who are getting these gigs and I'm not, and do I need one and don't I? And that's again, a weird place where you don't know the rules are, but I'm happy just doing my own thing. I talk a lot about how to improve cancer care. So cancer charities, I've spoken to the global heads of Bupa and Lisbon, I'll do a lot of international things about that. I talk a lot about sex and death and dying, but I'm now developing a talk about resilience and burnout to try and help people cope because I have actually coped with quite a lot.

So I'm developing a new talk at the moment with an incredible American speaking coach that I really think could have a massive impact on people. But then we're kind of thinking, well, if you do this, then surely the next step is then a workshop so people can learn more. It's like, God, that's more work to do. Because I've not gone down the route of selling courses or workshops or webinars. And that just seems like a step I probably should take, but I don't have the time, energy and money. But I love, because I'll talk about my story and I'm open and I'm honest and I can resonate and I'm.

It's amazing to feel a room full of people, get it? But I had to learn how to talk. So as a doctor, you're trained to just recite bullet points from an abstract and you look at the screen of notes and you don't look at the audience and everyone says the same thing. And it was from my TEDx talk that this amazing pediatric surgeon mentored me and said, the maximum number of words on a slide is zero. And you only use slides if they are going to improve the point you are making.

and you don't memorize it, it's like a story. Where are the audience now? Where do you want them to be? So TEDx talk people by tickets, so they don't know what the titles are. It's what do the audience need from me? Not what I want to tell them. And that transformed it. And suddenly you're just telling a story and it doesn't matter if you go wrong, because you can just add Lib. And it's really freeing and I love doing it.

Pippa Goulden (31:16)
That's amazing. I've never heard that approach before. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

LIz (31:19)
it's, yeah, because everyone gets a laptop. I says put the laptop

away. You need a pen and paper. It's like the whole, you know, how to write a film. Where are the arcs? Where's the tension? You're to make them happy. You're going to make them smile. What are the payoffs? How do you stop them tweeting all the way through? And this is the thing. Everyone's live tweeting conferences now. No one looks at you. But when you get an audience to look at you because they're not on their phone because they want to hear what you're saying. And when there aren't slides, most people just take a picture of the slide and go back to Twitter or Instagram. Well, there's no words on slides. All they can do is focus on you.

Pippa Goulden (31:49)
That's a very good point. I actually did a talk yesterday and it was a chat between two of us with a microphone to an audience. And that was exactly the same thing. I kept noticing, everyone's looking, like they are in gait. you then get that kind of feeling that, you can tell that they're actually really interested in what you're saying. And it gives you that kind of endorphin boost as you're talking to kind of, yeah, that's really interesting.

LIz (31:56)
Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Is the joke landing?

And it's really hard. it takes, he says a third of the time should be planning the script. And then you go to the laptop and you think, do I actually need a photo to demonstrate this? And then a third of the time is actually standing up and rehearsing it. So you know, if the slides don't work, if something goes wrong, you know you're there, you can do it. And the more you do it, the easier it becomes, but it's terrifying the first time not having...

all the words on the slides, but no one's listening to you. They're just screenshotting them. And you can give them a PDF at the end, a QR code here. Here's everything I talked about, but I want you to listen to me. And that was a game changer. I should write a book about public speaking.

Pippa Goulden (32:44)
Yeah I love those great great tips thank you very much.

There we go, I'm we're not going to add that to your to-do list yet Liz okay but I do think I think the resilience and you know the the stuff that you have shown human beings can.

LIz (32:53)
No, we're not. We're not. We're not.

Pippa Goulden (33:03)
do through adverse times is so inspiring and I know from talking to, when we were working together I would tell so many people that we were working together and whether they were, you know, my friend who's a radiographer, friends who's a GP, friends who've had, you know, most of us have had cancer touching our lives in some way, you know, people knew who you were, you are having that ripple effect through people and you should be so proud of everything you've achieved.

LIz (33:21)
Yeah.

It is funny you say that again, I, I'm almost in denial. I can't believe I've been through everything I've been through because I'm still here. It's like your brain kind of shuts it down. But similarly, I can't see all the good because I just think it's stuff I do. So I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to boast a little bit here if I can do. I had the craziest week. So my book, The Cancell roadmap came out on the 30th of January and I was on Lorraine. And then I saw it in an actual bookshop and I did a radio interview. And the next day I was, I've

I'm being invited to get an honorary doctorate from the University of Winchester for my breast cancer advocate work. So I'm going to be a doctor, doctor, doctor, because I already have a PhD. And then I was in the Express and the Sun in the Mail and the iNews on the weekend. And then on the Tuesday, I was on Five Live with Nagam and Chetty and it was half an hour, but she gave me an extra 15 minutes. And then I interviewed Wes Treating as his first cancer patient, cancer patient interview. And then, this is the minute you laugh.

I was invited to number 10 as Dr. Liz, I don't need a surname, to go and film an AI reception with Kirstama talking. And I got to meet the prime minister and they want, there's a photo of me taking a selfie with Kirstama. Crazy week.

Pippa Goulden (34:39)
Wow.

I mean, I don't think that's boasting. That is just incredible. It's just amazing.

LIz (34:43)
It's

when you don't see the impact of what you're doing, but when you're saying people recognise me, I don't see that. It's like, my God, number 10, know me as Dr. Liss. My life is really strange, but it's lovely to think. I it's 10 years of doing this and it's like, now I'm kind of getting the rewards and you're finally seeing the lovely stuff that can happen from the years of hard work.

Pippa Goulden (35:06)
Yeah and I think also there's something in it as well for anyone that has experienced something bad, whatever it is, whether it's cancer or you know something that's had to force a different direction, it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom does it? There are different ways that you can take what's happened to you.

LIz (35:19)
Yeah.

No. And

you have to cope because you have no choice. It just happens. And again, I lost my job, my independence, my career. I was 43. What do I do? And I just, writing was kind of therapy in a way. And I thought, well, I've got stuff to teach people because I have a new experience. How can I learn? And it just, it just grew organically. I never set out to do this.

I never thought I would even dream of doing anything like this, but it just kind of grew and opportunities come to you and you think, well, okay, what have got to lose?

Pippa Goulden (35:57)
Yeah, but although you haven't done it strategically, it hasn't just come to you. I just want to say that because you've taken the action to make it happen. I think it's really important because it's the difference between why it's happened to you in the way that it's happened to you and the way maybe that it hasn't happened to someone else because they've sat waiting for it to come to them. That's the difference.

LIz (36:06)
Yeah

Yeah,

I started writing and I started talking and I thought I want to write a book, how can I make this happen? And I have bought courses and tried to be the best I can be and thought, if this is the career, I want to do it properly. And yes, you have to like it you have to enjoy it, but you have to do it properly and you have to put the time in. And you can sit there thinking, maybe I'll start tomorrow and it may be that that's not right for you, but...

It's like the first time I put my face on an Instagram video. They're my God, what am gonna think? What am I gonna wear? And I faffed about branding and courses. Actually, people just wanna see my face. And once you've spoken on video and blurbed like I have done, think they don't care. They like the humor. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's like perfect is the enemy of good. I can spend hours fine tweaking a script YouTube, but just get it out there and everything you do is better than the last one. Whereas I was like, I can't do it until it's perfect.

Pippa Goulden (37:06)
Absolutely.

I think it's really important for people to hear that as well because you you've you've just been interviewing Keir Starmer like that's not normal but you didn't start out there.

LIz (37:18)
No.

Pippa Goulden (37:21)
you have started out where everybody else starts out, which is at the total beginning, overthinking, worrying about what you look like on Instagram, being worried about putting a video out there, and that is the place that we all start in. And so you've built it from there. It hasn't just come to you. It hasn't just magically happened.

LIz (37:22)
No.

Yep.

Yeah.

No, and

a lot of it is like imposter syndrome. There are people in the world who have imposter syndrome and there's everyone else in the world who has imposter syndrome. When I walk into an operating theater, I think, can't do this, I can't do this, am I good enough? And you have to put on that mask, you have to fake it until you make it. I can do this. Because if you don't believe you can, no one else in that room will. And it's a skill you develop and as a doctor, I called it internal brown trousers, external calm. Inside you go.

Pippa Goulden (37:48)
Ha ha.

LIz (38:08)
my God, my God. But you have to be calm. So the nurses stop flapping and people know what to do. And it's like, okay. And then you do anything. wow, I could do that. And it's like talking on stage for the first time or sending an email. You have to fake this confidence that you know what you're doing. So it's like someone rang me up and said a couple of years ago, can you come and talk about the latest menopause thing? I know nothing about that, but I'm going to say yes, because in two hours I can do the research and do a script. You have to invent this self-belief.

So when I go out and walk on a stage and talk to a thousand people, it's like, that's not me set at home here. You have to, a bit like Beyonce and her Sasha persona, you have to fake it. And the more you do it, the more you believe it, the easier it is. But if you don't think you can, then no one else will. And that was really hard for me to learn.

Pippa Goulden (38:53)
Yeah, that's and it's something that we all have to learn because it just won't happen otherwise and if we want it to happen, which we do, look at what can happen when you do take the chance and you send the emails and you take the action to stop overthinking and make it happen.

LIz (39:02)
I know.

Yeah.

You just have to try. You really do.

Pippa Goulden (39:14)
love that. So what is next for you? I mean I know there's some stuff that we can't talk about which is really exciting. We'll do part two!

LIz (39:20)
I know, we

will. So I've kind of, got really mentally down over Christmas. I think I didn't really deal with the death of my dad dying, because I had two books to do. Part of me just wants to stop and remember, I am a cancer patient on treatment for life, and I don't have the energy. And I want to sew and garden and knit and walk the dog and actually exercise properly. So I'm trying to think half a day is for me. I want to get really good at YouTube and the scripts and learn how to keep people watching, because it's a game.

And I'm slowly learning that I can help there. So I'm really enjoying that using chat GPT for good and not bad to make my life easier. want my dad, my dad's created an origin story of a unicorn when mum was dying. And I'd love to turn that into a children's book. And I've got three ideas of some really gruesome medical horror, thrillery novels. And I'd like to try writing something completely outside. But I think for me,

It's nailing my resilience talk and being able to reach a lot more people in a different way because that's the stuff that feeds me and that's the stuff that brings in the bills. But who knows in six months time it could be something completely different.

Pippa Goulden (40:19)
Yeah. my goodness.

Do know what Liz, knowing you I think it probably will be.

LIz (40:27)
But something

we talked about, we've talked about kind of retreats. I feel guilty about charging people for my company, but I've reached out, I'm going on a retreat with Daisy Buchanan to read in Greece in the sun. And they said that they'd consider doing a retreat with me where people could pay to come and spend a week with me. Now they said October and I can't do October because that's just too busy this year, but that may be something I do and just kind of relaxing my high moral high ground and just exploring what people are willing to do.

Pippa Goulden (40:54)
Absolutely, because like I say, there's all the resources out there for free that you're giving mate. Why not? You know, there's opportunities for you. Absolutely. That are aligned and authentic to who you are and what your mission is. So yeah, it's just about taking those, isn't it? And keeping true to who you are.

LIz (40:58)
Yeah, I know.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And not feeling,

and knowing your worth.

Pippa Goulden (41:16)
Absolutely and that is so important isn't it? And you are worth a lot Liz to all of us so thank you for everything that you do because I know so many people that do benefit from you at whatever part of stage they're in or whoever's being affected so you know thank you. Thank you for coming on PR Made Simple as well as I said I loved working with you I hope we can work together in the future and

LIz (41:17)
knowing your worth. Yeah.

Thank you.

And I'm going to tell people,

when the book came out last time, I spent six grand on a book PR company to do all the PR for me. thought, I don't have that money. And it was a friend who recommended you. And I thought, wow, you can teach me how to do it for a lot less of the money. And it was fun. And you gave me the skills I need to carry on. Best thing I did, honestly. So thank you for getting me everything I have and things just moving on.

Pippa Goulden (42:05)
Well, has made my day. So you've had a good week and I've had a good week. You're a great guest. You can come again. Thank you so much, Liz. See you soon.

LIz (42:09)
I'm a good guest.

Thanks, Bippa.

Bye.

Pippa Goulden (42:18)
I hope you enjoyed that chat with Liz as much as I loved having that chat with Liz. She is a truly inspiring human being and a great example of somebody who has just kept going even in the face of huge adversity. Make sure you go and follow her on Instagram. She can be found Liz O'Riordan and also she has got an amazing podcast called So Now I've Got Breast Cancer. She has a YouTube channel. She does all sorts of relevant

PR and great content for you so if you are affected by anything that we've talked about today or you just want an example of somebody who is getting known for what they do in a brilliant, authentic, consistent way then have a look at Liz. And if this has inspired you Liz did my one-to-one accelerator and as you've heard was a big fan of it so check out more info at and you can find me Pippa Goulden.

LinkedIn or Pippa the PR set on Instagram and I will see you again very soon for another episode of PR Made Simple.