Please note this transcript is generated by AI so apologies for any mistakes!

Pippa Goulden (00:43)
Cat Sims is an author, podcaster, substacker, content creator or influencer in layman's terms, otherwise known as Not So Smug Now. She has built an audience of over 270,000 followers through her honest take on motherhood, mental health, her journey to sobriety and so much more. She's made a living out of documenting her failures and successes across various social media platforms and I

personally vouch for the fact that she's a bloody great person, a great friend, incredibly genuine, supportive and an all-round good egg. So welcome Cat Sims to PR Made Simple. How are you?

Cat (01:18)
And really well thank you Pippa. How are you? so proud and pleased for you with this podcast.

Pippa Goulden (01:23)
cute it's only taken me three and a half years but you know we've got there in the end

Cat (01:27)
Slowly, slowly catch the monkey.

Pippa Goulden (01:29)
Exactly right can we just give some context to this chat we're having today so

would you tell the listener what is it that you do a bit of background to your working life because you also have lots of experience working with small businesses

so your experience as an influencer but also understanding what it's like on the other side of the fence I think is really relevant.

Cat (01:49)
Yeah, so in 2015, I set up an agency with the lovely Gail Haddock called Hustle and Fox, and we were, think, like one of the first influencer marketing agencies. So we were one of the agencies that was really connecting brands with influencers. Honestly, in relation to what's happening now, we weren't doing it brilliantly. We were kind of blazing the trail. We were figuring it out as we went along, but we were able to see that the link between influencer and brands was going to grow, and it was going to grow exponentially because it...

It's a partnership that works for both in a really affordable, accessible, legitimate way. So I did that and then I'd always been creating content throughout, but during lockdown, I decided to leave Hustle and Fox and focus entirely on getting actually a proper job. That's what I was gonna do. I was gonna go and get a proper job. But weirdly, as is always the way, life has a funny way of kind of...

telling you actually where you're going rather than where you wanna go. And my TikTok and Instagram blew up so much over lockdown that I was able to move to content creation full time. And the brands that I've been able to work with have been brilliant. And it's been a really interesting learning curve being on this side of the game as well, because there's still a lot.

for agencies and influencers and brands to learn about how best to work together. So yeah, so that's where I'm now. do most of my work. I earn most of my money through brand deals that I create. So I create content for brands, but I'm also a writer. So book deals, royalties, sub stack, all of that stuff.

Pippa Goulden (03:38)
And also let's flag from the outset we do actually have a course that we've done together.

Cat (03:42)
Yeah we do.

Pippa Goulden (03:43)
We do, it's a very good course. It gets amazing feedback, all about how to work with influencers. It's a real bargain. So we will reference that as we carry on through this conversation. that's kind of what we're talking about, but there will also be a code for you listeners

So I will put that code in the show notes, but I just want to say that from the outset because we probably will reference that through this conversation. But you know,

Jumping in first as a kind of social media queen that you are, what I want to talk about first, which I think a lot of small businesses often miss the trick on, is using your socials as a PR tool because I think often we just put out information that we want to give to our audience and we don't think strategically about actually all the different ways that we can use our socials kind of in a more, maybe more slightly more creative way, collaborate with people. Can you talk about that in a bit more detail for me?

Cat (04:38)
Yeah, I think that a lot of us, and I mean content creators as well, but I mean anybody who's creating a brand of sorts online, I think we bring quite old fashioned ideas to that sometimes. And I think we very much sometimes sit in that LinkedIn professional space and we start using it to, know, using Instagram or TikTok to go, this is my product and this is great. And I think probably there's a little bit of room for that, but actually if you...

The real skill, I think, in being a brand owner and using social media to your advantage is being able to combine that content creator, whether it's education, humor, entertainment, any of those things, with your product in some ways. But the product almost comes second. You know, it's on social media.

your product comes second, you come first, your humor, your ethos, the ethos of the brand, everything that you put into the brand, that's what comes first. The brand itself, the product for me comes second. So if I see people who've got great products or great brands and they're using, they're jumping on trends to talk about, you know, they're jumping on trends, but inserting their product or inserting their brand into it as a secondary context.

That's gonna work really, really well because people are like, I love that trend, but also she's done that in a really clever way. When we watch TV adverts, we're very aware that we're being sold to. You have to be clever on social media. You've got less than three seconds. If people are like, this is a, and I know this from my side because as soon as I do any ads, even if they're great ads, they're never gonna get the engagement that organic content.

will and it could be exactly the same but once and I immediately people's brains are resistant to it so you do have to work a lot harder on social media as a brand and I also think that it's rare these days that brands can exist solely on social media I think there was a time when a brand could blow up on social media but really I think it has to be one

element of like a multifaceted approach to PR and marketing.

Pippa Goulden (06:56)
I totally agree. think five, well, maybe longer ago now you could launch your business and pretty much rely on Instagram to kind of sell and it doesn't work. And we see that frustration, don't we? And that's why I think, you know, seeing your social channels as an integrated part of your marketing and PR, I think is, you know, a clever way to do it.

Cat (07:17)
Yeah, and I think as well, there are definitely brands that blew up on social media. And I can think of a few, like I'm thinking Scampin' Dude, Motherhood, all of those things, all of those, sorry, if you can hear my bloody dog barking in background, all of those brands blew up, but they have lasted because they have stepped back and they've taken the business on in a way that isn't just relying on social media.

And I think that's a really important thing. There'll be loads of brands that blew up and didn't survive because they just kept plugging away on social media. And actually, at some point, you've got to say, how can I use this platform, this gift of a platform that I've been given? The product clearly works, the brand's clearly working, but this isn't going to last forever. How can I use this platform to then build all this business behind it? This like the real foundations of it.

And it feels a bit backwards doing that, but it is, if you blow up on social media, you do have to sort of go back and put in those foundations again if you want to last.

Pippa Goulden (08:19)
Absolutely. And also equally you can have an incredibly successful business that doesn't have tens and tens of thousands of followers. know, there's different ways to do it, isn't there? Things change really quickly, it feels like on social. From a channel's perspective, what are you on now and how do the audiences change? How do you approach the different channels you're on? Or is it just this is me and this is what I'm doing and I'll do it across the different channels?

Cat (08:27)
Totally.

Yeah, they do. They are different. don't have that. I mean, I do TikTok and Instagram. So TikTok's currently at about 237,000 and Instagram's about 272,000, 3000. But largely the content's the same. Occasionally TikTok is a little bit more, I think because I don't make as much money on TikTok, there's a certain freedom that I have there. It's a bit like, well, you know.

whatever, can sort of say what I want to say on TikTok. Instagram is, she's a tough mistress because you do have to put a lot of work into Instagram. Like she's like the needy girlfriend that needs constant reassurance, whereas TikTok's kind of the mistress that like doesn't really care. She's like, whatever, I'm busy tonight.

But Instagram really needs some love and attention. And you know, it's every comment needs replying to, every DM needs either acknowledging or replying to, you need to be putting content up at the right time. you know, I do feel like we are fighting an algorithm battle that I actually think has started to ease off in the last two or three weeks. Actually, I've seen increased engagement in the last two or three weeks for no other reason other than.

it just started happening. So I think that you are always at the mercy of that. It's easy to feel like it's your fault or your problem if you're not winning at Instagram, but actually I think there's only so much that's in your control. But in terms of platforms, think it's really about trial and error, identifying where your audience is. You're gonna have some of your target demographic on every platform, but you only have a finite amount of time. So it's...

where you are gonna find the most of your audience, put the time into that. Sure, know, throw it out into TikTok if it's not TikTok or Instagram if it's not Instagram, but really put the majority of your focus into the platform that you think is gonna work best. And also, you know, don't underestimate the power of platforms like LinkedIn. I think that gets forgotten about a lot. And actually, think LinkedIn is a really, really powerful social media tool that...

doesn't require nearly as much nurturing as Instagram and yet can get you quite significant returns. So it's also become a lot less stuffy. It is a lot more creative these days. So I would definitely, you know, just trial and error and figure out where you feel comfortable.

Pippa Goulden (11:20)
Yeah, I think that's really good advice. think obviously, you know, all of the kind of teaching that I do is ultimately about your audience and understanding who that audience is and working backwards from there. And it's the same with your social channels. You know, there's no point flogging your guts out on TikTok if you're...

audience aren't hanging out there equally. Like you say, I've seen a real shift in LinkedIn. I think from a female founder perspective as well, there's a really supportive community out there on LinkedIn. And I find from a B2B service perspective, it's a really great place just to find people, that understand, you know, the things that I'm going through from a business perspective, but also from a client perspective as well. I think it's fascinating understanding

Cat (11:57)
Yeah, totally.

Pippa Goulden (12:03)
it from an influencer's perspective because you know we're scrolling and we're watching clips and we're you know we're not understanding always the amount of work and effort that goes into kind of the content that you create. How strategic are you with that content and I know every influencer is going to be different so this is probably just a very you know personal question like how do you create your content tell us how it works from your side because I think it is a real eye-opener.

Cat (12:29)
God, listen, I'm really bad. I'm really bad. There are people who, and this is what I should do. I should treat this like it's a nine to five job and everybody, and I should get up and I should do some writing and I should do some filming and I should do some editing every day. And really in my mind, that's what I want to do, but it's not what happens. It's not what happens. I'm like a squirrel on cocaine caught in headlights. I'm like, I'm going to paint the living room.

but first I'll go for a walk. But I also want to go to the gym and I've got to film some stuff and then I just sit and eat a packet of biscuits instead. I definitely...

And I feel the stress of that, honestly, like anxiety, if anything keeps me up at night, I'm really sorry if you can hear my dog, she's going absolutely mental. I know, she really is. Like she's the annoying part. Maybe I'm the annoying part as well, I don't know. If there's anything that keeps me up at night, it is definitely, I haven't made enough content, I'm not funny enough, it's not good enough. That's what keeps me up.

Pippa Goulden (13:20)
She's part of you, she's part of the brand, it's fine.

Ha ha ha!

Cat (13:43)
I go through periods, I'm actually in one now where I feel like less stressed. And it's really important for me to recognise that actually that's probably because I've had a couple of reels recently that have gone really viral. So I've got that kind of validation, but I've also got that little breathing space to go, well, I've got two reels that are currently going viral, so I'm all right for a bit. But actually, if I was more organised and I planned my content a bit better, I'd probably not be on this constant emotional roller coaster.

That being said, I also quite like my content to be spontaneous of the moment. You know, so it's a fine line to walk and as a brand, I think it's really easy to go, well, we'll do content creation here and we'll talk about this and you plan it. And I think that's important, but I do think there needs to be room for that really spontaneous stuff as well. Those moments where...

you know, your behind the scenes moments or just you've had a customer call in or and you just need to talk about it or vent about it or whatever it is. Like I think, you know, it's, I think the stress comes from the need to sort of constantly be on.

Pippa Goulden (14:59)
Absolutely and I think that's but it's also why I think people are drawn to you as a kind of influencer because it is it doesn't feel like you have a strategic plan to rinse people of their money like and there are people out there who you know I generally have stopped following them

Cat (15:13)
Listen, look, I'm not gonna lie or be disingenuous about this. Nine brands that I work with out of 10, I'm genuinely excited about in a certain way, like for whatever reason. I'd be lying if I said that that was the case with every brand that I've ever worked with. And it's really important, I think, that we talk about that because...

I influences are sometimes held to quite an unreasonable standard. My husband's a so we both work in the gig economy. he's session, so he gets offers to play with whoever comes up. He has to take the work, whether or not he really fundamentally likes and believes in the music. Nobody is assessing that. Nobody's judging him on that. Nobody's going, my god, you played with that girl band. Where's your morals?

Everybody's going, well, this is his job. know, some gigs are great, some gigs aren't so great. It's a little bit like that. And I think that there is obviously we're selling something and I wouldn't sell anything that I had a moral or ethical opposition to. But there are definitely some brands where I'm like, fuck, I don't know if I've got the money to pay the mortgage this month. I'm going to take this brand. Often that's more to do with

the way the brand works rather than the product itself. like often I'll do, I really tried to avoid very prescriptive briefs. So if they're like, you can't do this or don't do that. And I'm like, well, why did you come to me? Like, if you don't want me to be funny, if you don't want me to be a little bit close to the bone, then don't ask me to do it. So I generally try and avoid very scripted or very prescriptive briefs. They're the ones that I'll probably go, fine, I'll do it. If I don't know where the next paycheck's coming from. And I would hope that

people, and I think they do, think a lot of followers, most followers will give you grace if the majority of your content is joyful and entertaining. If they get what they want from you, I think they understand that every now and again an ad pops in and that's the nature of the beast at the moment, you know, and I love it sometimes I get followers who will message me and go, what can I do to help you with this branded content? if I...

click the link is that helpful? Do I need to buy stuff? Do I need to do this, that and the other? I'm like, I love you, just like it, comment and click the link, that'd be amazing. Because link clicks are huge for us. You know, I get asked daily by brands to send in my link clicks because that's what they want to see. It's not really about conversions because honestly, if they click the link and they get to the website and they don't buy it, that's not my fault. That's on them at that point.

They're there, I've got them there, if they're not hooking them. So link clicks are really important. And I think supporting your influencers, your content creators that you really love and enjoy, even if you're not necessarily loving that particular piece of content or that particular brand, it really means a lot because it means that we can keep doing the fun stuff.

Pippa Goulden (18:30)
Yeah, absolutely. think this leads me on to my next question, which is about kind of how your recommendations for how small businesses should kind of work with you. And one of the things I know we talk about in the course a lot is about like being present and building relationships and not just going in cold and being like, hi, I've just started following you. Can you feature my business? Like what, what are your tips for from a gifting perspective? Cause obviously there are brands listening to this that don't have budget.

Cat (18:54)
Okay. Certainly from a gifting perspective, I think that you need to choose the influences you reach out to really carefully. You know, for example, it's actually an old friend of mine, but I hadn't spoken to her for a very, very long time, but she saw that I was surfing and paddle boarding and not cold water swimming because that's, I'm not that person.

But she was like, listen, I've designed, we haven't spoken in ages, but I've designed this new fleecy reversible waterproof that's designed for like this, that and the other. Would you mind if I sent you one? Now that makes sense to me because I'm like, well, this is great. And even if somebody reaches out cold to me, but I can tell that they've seen, they've picked me because they think their product is gonna specifically help me. Great, really happy to get involved. And.

And this is a personal thing. think most influencers will say if it's a gifting, you can't guarantee content. I tend to not accept gifts unless I'm prepared to make content about it. That doesn't include gifts that are just sent to me without, know, somehow people get hold of your address and they just send stuff to you. That's not gonna, I'm not gonna do that. But I do tend to think that if I'm taking product, especially from a small brand, which is really the only time I'll take gifting,

I'm gonna shout about it. So I think if you're a small brand, find your influences that have got a pain point that your product helps ease. And on a very broad level, that can be, I run a nanny service, you're a mum, right? But on a much more niche level, like it was with the fleece, it's like, I see that you like surfing and getting cold in water. Here is a product that can help you with that. That's brilliant.

It's really about doing that. Don't just go for numbers. I mean, obviously, perfect is like somebody with numbers and exactly what you need. Let's be honest, but don't underestimate as a small business, 10 sales could make a huge difference to you. So somebody with 10,000 followers could easily get those 10 sales for you. So I think the important is finding just that symbiosis, that connection that makes sense, especially if you're gifting.

Pippa Goulden (21:10)
Yeah, absolutely. I I've worked with influencers with huge in the millions numbers before and they have not done anything for the brand. You know, it's not all about the numbers. It's about, like you say, it's about the alignment. And I think something that you were saying there, and I kind of teach this when you're pitching for whether it's for journalists or to anyone about your business, it's trying to remove your own agenda. So it's not about me and I, and I have this

great product, feature it for me please. It's, I've seen that you walk your dog every morning and we've developed these hand warmers or whatever it is from that perspective. So it's about thinking about what benefits the audience but also from an influencer perspective, the influencer.

Cat (21:53)
Yeah, and the other thing is we are also, we get quite a lot of requests. So there's definitely room for you to leave it for a bit and come back to it. There's a trainer who I know has messaged me a few times, but then she just happened to message me at a point where I was like, I'm bored in the gym. Like I'm sick and tired. I don't know what my workouts are looking like. She was like, you want me to write a track? I was like, that would be amazing.

You know, and so we'll work together on that. And it is a case of just keeping that, if you really think that that influencer is the right person for you, it might not be the right time, but stick with it, keep her in your sights, and then use that time to like build a relationship and the time will probably come. But yeah, it is just a case of keeping your finger on that sort of pulse and what they need and what they need at that moment.

Pippa Goulden (22:47)
Absolutely. One of the questions that comes up in my DIY membership quite a bit is how do you find the right influencers? I know we do cover this in the course as well, but there isn't really a magic influencer list.

Cat (23:02)
No, and I think as well, as much as I want to bash the algorithm, I do think that the more time you spend on social media and the more you like, and also it's important to do this with, if you've got two accounts, know, one for your business and one as a personal, for example, if you're into like funny animal cute videos, which I am, you know, search for all that stuff on your personal, you'll get all that up.

If you want to find the right influencers or the right people to connect with or collaborate with on your professional page, your brand page, make sure that's what you're searching for all the time. And you will get served up. I mean, you also get served up a load of nonsense, but you will get served up stuff that you go, she's amazed. Like I could work with her. But it is about time as well. You know, nothing about working with social media is quick. It's not hard.

but it's not quick and that it does require persistence even when everything you're doing is bombing. And I'm not gonna sit here and say you don't take it personally, you do take it personally, you do. And it hits, it eats away at your self-esteem and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I can post something that I know is brilliant, but it bombs. I post something that I also know is brilliant and it flies. Nothing I have done is different.

Pippa Goulden (24:06)
Absolutely.

Cat (24:26)
but the way I feel about myself after each of those things is really different. And it's really important to recognise that.

Pippa Goulden (24:33)
Gosh, I don't know, you put yourself through it. But then I guess that's also part of your brand. I don't hate this personal brand, but it is part of who is actually just you. It's not about a personal brand. It's just you because you talk about the highs and the lows and you talk about all the positives and you talk about all the negatives and the journey. But you know, that is you, isn't it? And that's why I think you connect with people because you're just being true and authentic to who you are.

Cat (24:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and maybe I'm just ultra-sensitive and ultra-needy and require a lot of external validation. I mean, I, listen, you're great, you're great, you're doing great, baby. But I do know, and all those things are true, and there are probably people who it doesn't affect and they just get on with it. I don't get affected by trolls anymore so much. I've managed to grow thick skin there, but when the people I know like me and follow me,

Pippa Goulden (25:04)
You're great, Cat, you're great.

Cat (25:26)
don't like the content I put out, that's when I start to get bit cry-y. But, you know, I'm working on it, it's a me problem.

Pippa Goulden (25:35)
Are there any types from a gifting perspective? What types of businesses do you think it works best for? Or do you think that there are opportunities for all types of businesses, products, services? mean, services, more difficult, isn't it? But there are ways that you can kind of use social as a tool.

Cat (25:52)
Yeah, I think with gifting, a lot of it comes down to price point. know, I think jewellery always gifts really well, not like solid diamond jewellery, but you know, like really lovely, affordable jewellery. The amount of times I get asked, where's your necklace from? Where's this from? Those products, those things that people can quickly just treat themselves to, they work great with gifting. Slightly more expensive things.

can still work, but your expectations need to be tempered. Very expensive. And also you start to get into, as soon as you start to get into like £100 and above really, or even £70 and above, you're starting to, with a small percentage of build a little bit of resentment. Like they're already annoyed. And the more expensive you get, the more resentment that starts to build because

How many times and how annoying is it when somebody's wearing something and they link it and then you go, I go, love it, I love it. You link through and it's 380 quid. And you're like, I'm not spending 380 pounds on a cardigan. That's ridiculous.

Pippa Goulden (27:01)
every influencer in a pretty dress in the summer. Yeah.

Cat (27:04)
Yeah, all of that. And you're like, come on. So what I try to do when I'm linking is it's on the page. I'm like, it's this much. Like when you you go through, it's going to cost you this much money. So make your choice now. But I think an awareness that, you know, not everybody is going to able to afford that product. You know, being gifted holidays, trips like that, I always find it really difficult to to get on board with.

You know, I think that there are definitely spaces to do it. You know, I see people who went get gifted massive, party houses. And I think actually there's room there for that because you're all we're always sometimes looking for like one house to get away where everybody, you know, jumps in on the cost. that's that. But then a big five star holiday to the Maldives.

that doesn't sit as well with me. know, people who can afford a five-star holiday to the Maldives aren't taking recommendations from influencers. They already have a private estate agent who's probably just done it and organized it. Not estate agent, travel agent, who's organized it for them. So I think it's just really important to think about where your product is and whether gifting on Instagram actually works.

Pippa Goulden (28:16)
Yeah, I think as well, there's a few different things though that you can do gifting for or the influencer activity for and some of it is direct sales and if you have a lower cost product, you're more likely to see traction on that. But there is also the awareness and the building your own social channels and that kind of thing. I think it's about understanding your business objectives, really understand your audience and your price point and the kind of product or service that you have.

Cat (28:42)
Yeah, I think as well, this is something that I'm start, think as influencer marketing is developing, for me, I think that it's almost gonna go more towards a product placement vibe. And I think where brands and influencers are really gonna start working together in a way that really has longevity is almost getting brands and influencers to sign year long deals.

where there's a monthly retainer, there's a monthly fee, and there's no specific briefs, but the influencer has been fully immersed in that brand. So they have been to headquarters, they've been to the factory, they've spoken to PR and marketing, they know the product inside out, they've decided they want to work with them. They get a monthly retainer.

and they are expected to create a certain amount of content or feature the product a certain amount of times. You can still disclose that I'm an ambassador or I represent this or whatever I get, but I think that A, that gives the influencer that security of knowing that they're getting a fee, a monthly fee, which is huge for us, enormous. But also the audience are getting that reassurance that we are fully invested in this brand.

we have been able to choose this brand because we're getting paid regularly to do so.

Pippa Goulden (30:08)
it's kind of like goes back to the old school ambassador. We would do that quite a lot

of in PR activity.

it means that you're actually working with brands that you get to know and you understand so you can talk about it from a genuine place rather than just going, hey, look at this, buy this.

Cat (30:24)
Yeah, yeah. And I think even if you're a small brand, if you're a small independent brand, but you have a factory, you have a warehouse, you know, it's sometimes worth maybe going to know what, why don't we invite this girl down or this man down, whatever, let's put her up in a nice hotel, let's show her around, she can pick what she likes, she's got the idea of what's going on in the brand. That's going to cost you some travel, a hotel, a bit of product, but then you've got somebody who's really invested. And I think

That's sometimes quite a nice way, but I want I do some work with Symprove which is a great brand and they did that You know, they took us down to the factory. They showed us around they explained it all and I love that product and I love working for that brand and I use it and I pay for it myself

it? Do you know what I mean? It's

Pippa Goulden (31:11)
Yeah, but I think also from a brand perspective, it's showing the belief in your brand. know, the fact that, know, Symprove want to take you and show you and be excited and passionate rather than taking you for a night in a fancy hotel and giving you a mac. Yeah. Yeah.

Cat (31:27)
And transparent, like and transparent, you know, they're showing me facts and figures and when it's a brand like Simprove, which is a probiotic, so you do have data on it, it's really important that your influencers understand what that's all about.

know, it is one of those things that I think is eventually going to get better in the industry.

Pippa Goulden (31:44)
Yeah, it does feel, I feel like there's there's

a change happening at the moment and it's interesting to watch. mean, God, you know, if you think about the fact that you really started doing this full on in lockdown, I mean, that's only what for whatever, however many years ago it is and how, how things have changed and evolved since that time, you know, it is a constantly evolving, it must be quite exhausting.

Cat (32:05)
Well, mean, listen, I've only been able to make a living out of it exclusively since lockdown, but I was still doing this from 2015. So, you know, in terms of, think my first paid gig was 2015 with Pampers. And I remember I was paid £3,000 for pictures. Like, I think it was like three posts or something. But I remember going, my God, what? Like, that's what I'm getting paid.

To be fair, that was actually exceptionally good. And for the next two years, I don't think I earn anything like that for a gig. I think that was just really lucky. I have grown up as this kind of industry. I've grown up with the industry, essentially. And what I do know is everybody can take themselves a little bit too fucking seriously. I don't know if I can swear, but here we are. Great. And I do know that...

Pippa Goulden (32:56)
You can swear.

Cat (33:01)
the market itself has become quite claustrophobic actually, and I think there's a lot of agencies. mean, the amount, God, the amount of times I have to go through my manager to an agency.

to a brand and then there's like a million different steps at the brand level as well, because they've got a social media department, they've got a creative department, they've got a legal department, go, there's a lot of people that can get in the way and they don't all understand the actual act, like what it actually takes. So the amount of times I go, I just need to speak to the person at the brand who said they wanted to work with me. Like.

I need to speak to them because they'll get it. So it is, you know, I think we have to be careful. The industry is definitely improving and it's really exciting. You know, it is really exciting and I love to see it evolve and I love seeing new content creators come up and do content that blows my mind. And I'm always hyper aware that you've got to be agile as a content creator. You can't just rely on your last viral reel.

I've been guilty of that and it just doesn't work. So it's exciting, but it's not very secure emotionally, financially. It's a lot of fun.

Pippa Goulden (34:22)
Love you.

fun though. Yeah and I guess actually going back to what you're saying about you know working with the big brands and there's all of those hoops to go through I guess that must make working with smaller businesses actually quite attractive because often there's only a couple of people involved if or one you know from that perspective so you know there are advantages to that aren't there.

Cat (34:45)
my God, totally. 100%. There is something joyful about being able to be as creative as you like with small brands

But yeah, I think it's exciting. And I think working with small brands, a lot of people don't do it because they don't get paid. I appreciate that. But I do feel like I...

I'm lucky enough to work with enough big brands to earn enough money that I do have space to work with smaller brands. Not all of them. And just suddenly imagining my inbox just being like full.

Pippa Goulden (35:14)
caveat. So what kind of brands do you like working with? Like what's your...

Cat (35:19)
I like working, brands that I know will resonate, brands that aren't too expensive. It's just not me. I've built a whole shtick on being relatable. It's not a shtick. Like it is relatable, that's the point. But I can't then go and here's a 500 pound handbag. I'm not gonna sell that stuff. relatable, inexpensive, but.

I in some ways, it's a very instinctive thing. You know, there are certain things that make me click on the shop now or certain things that make me stop on the content. Those are the brands I'm gonna work with. So it is a bit like, if I don't like it, I'm not gonna work with it. But it doesn't mean that your product's not great. It just means that it's not for me. And that's fine. There'd definitely be people who it is for.

Pippa Goulden (36:15)
Yeah, what's the best way for brands who do have budget to work with influencers? Where's the best place to start from that perspective?

Cat (36:24)
I mean, if they've got budget and your influencer, say for example, has got like for brand and PR stuff in their bio, contact this email, always get in touch with their manager. If there's budget, that's always gonna be a serious conversation because the manager has to come to me. My manager has to say, I've got this offer in. She might go, the money's rubbish, but the brand is great.

And that's kind of how I make a decision really. It's not about money. call it, think, do we talk about this in the thing, but I call it the primitive power triangle. And I'm taking all the credit for it, but it's actually my husband. But basically I make a decision on whether I do any work or collaborations or take a gig or sign a contract based on this triangle, which is either I do it for the money, I do it for the love of it, or I do it for the opportunity. And it really has to hit two of those.

If I'm skin and I don't know whether I can pay the mortgage, it just has to hit money. I'll be honest. But really, I'll do something for free if I love it and or it's going to bring some opportunity.

And I don't think it's on brands. This is where I get a bit controversial. I don't think it's on brands to believe that they have to pay everybody they want to work with. If you're a small brand and you don't have budget, that should not exclude you from working with influencers. Any influencers that go, how dare you ask me to work with you without paying? It's offensive.

I just think that's not all right. It's not all right to behave like that. Like, I make a decision on whether I want to do the work or not. It's that simple. And I make that decision based on what I can get out of it above and beyond monetary value. You know, maybe it's just that I really like the person.

Pippa Goulden (38:16)
Yeah, and actually, yeah, but it's also from an audience perspective, much better that you have those, you know, different levels of brands that you're working with, different types of content, because it's very obvious from

Cat (38:17)
Maybe I just want to do something nice.

Pippa Goulden (38:32)
consumer perspective that you're doing lots of lovely content, lots of lovely content, and then, I've got an ad.

you know and it's like it feels really disingenuous whereas I think with the way that you approach it it feels much more of a natural way that you're doing it.

Cat (38:46)
I mean, but again, you will get hit by ads. That is the nature of what I do. You are gonna get hit by ads and you're gonna be like, hmm, sometimes you might be like, that's a bit jarring. I get it. I get it. We do our very, I do my very best to make it as not jarring as possible, but sometimes the kids need to choose. Like that is the reality of it. But in terms of the gifting and working with small brands, any influencer that sends you a shitty email back going, well, the bank manager.

isn't going to accept, you know, jewellery for my mortgage payment this year. By the way, I have sent those shitty emails to big brands, to massive brands who wanted me to do content for free. They will get the shitty end of my tongue. But small brands, I get it. You're doing what you can and there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to use an influencer who can benefit from it.

I don't like this, I should get paid for everything attitude. Like I get paid really well for a lot of stuff, but I also do a lot of stuff for free.

Pippa Goulden (39:50)
Yeah, I love that.

it's quite rare from like a brand's perspective or from my side of the fence that we actually get this much insight into it and I think it really helps people to understand how it all works and how they can approach it. So what would be, if you want a small business owner who's listening to this and is thinking about doing influencer marketing but...

you know going I can't do it because I'm worried that they might think I'm this or that that. What is your advice to them?

Cat (40:17)
Well, first of all, just do it. Like, look at the influencers, cast them as you would if they were being in a movie about your brand. Like, really find the people that you want to wear your product or use your product or whatever. And reach out to them. Now, they might not always get into, they might not always see your message, they might not always get back to you. My big advice is make them say no to you.

obviously you get lots of DMs and there's always one occasionally that's like, really sorry, just putting this at the top of your list again. Feel free, you know, just let me know. And then I'll stop bothering you. And it might take two or three of those, but eventually I'll go, I'm so sorry. And nine times out of 10, it's just that I just literally haven't got around to it. Occasionally, occasionally I'll be like,

Pippa Goulden (41:03)
often that's me. Cat, Cat will you read my message?

Cat (41:06)
I know it is. No, you see, she knows, you know, it's not also don't take it personally. I do it to everybody. But nine times out of 10, it's just that I haven't got around to it. Occasionally I'll go, do you know what? really appreciate you reaching out. It's not for me or it's not for me right now. Check back in at this time. And I could, if I'm honest, I could sometimes be better about doing that. Eventually I do, but keep going, make them say no and also

From my point of view, I get a lot of stuff sent, not just because it's a free gifting, but even if it's a paid gig, they have to send me product to make, so I get a lot of stuff. I have to be quite discerning about it, if I insta, so it's quite instinctive, if I go, yes, I love that I need it, great. If I'm like hesitating, I'm just gonna go, I just, literally can't take any more stuff at the moment.

doesn't mean that down the line I'm not going to be able to but just keep just keep politely persisting and as I said right at the beginning wait for that pain point to reveal itself you know if you're always that's that is I will bite the hand of anybody who's like I've got this I saw that you needed this I can send you one I'm like my god

and then the content's really organic and it works and it's brilliant

Pippa Goulden (42:34)
that and it is just do it like stop overthinking it just get on and do it

Cat (42:36)
Yeah. The other thing I would say is even if you've not got budget, don't be afraid to send an email to the manager if they've got a manager and agent listed, because they still have to tell you about it.

you. So don't be afraid to send an email. I'm just gonna love that.

Pippa Goulden (42:50)
your manager's gonna love that sorry hilarious and and what else are you up to at the moment tell us all

Cat (42:54)
Sorry, Katie.

So it's really exciting at the moment. wouldn't say there's anything immediately that I'm here to flog, if you like, apart from the influence, course. And there is obviously a book.

Which is a great journal called The First Time You Smiled, or Was It Just Wind? Very funny, parent-centric, baby journal. Great, best baby shower gift ever.

Pippa Goulden (43:20)
It's very good. It's also had some excellent PR as well I think.

Cat (43:23)
I think you'll find out has had some great PR. Yeah. And she did. She's amazing. But the really exciting thing is that I am a writer by trade. That's always been my love. And so, you know, in the last year or so, I've been able to get a literary agent. There's a novel that I've written. We've got another nonfiction. I think we're about to sign, which I can't say anything about, but I think we are about to sign a book deal for the for the novel and the nonfiction, which is really exciting. And

Pippa Goulden (43:26)
I did that, I did that.

Cat (43:52)
You know, the great, I love doing what I do and I would, and I never take it for granted. I'm not going to bitch and moan about it. I do sometimes get a bit embarrassed when I have to say I'm an influencer for living, but that's again, it's me problem. But do I really want to be selling stuff on Instagram when I'm 60? Not really. I will do if I have to, but if I can use my platform to write.

living if I can use my platform to get you know through use those opportunities that I've built up

and now I'm using it to do this I'd love that's sort of where I see myself going so definitely more writing I'd like to do a bit more broadcasting and TV work so we'll see who knows but I'm not going anywhere I'll be on Instagram for the foreseeable and tick-tock you know I'm not

going anywhere you're have to block me if you don't want to see me

Pippa Goulden (44:46)
But that's like the evolution of businesses, isn't it? That's what we start with something and it evolves and changes and the fact that you are doing that is exactly what you should be doing. It's what we should all be doing is thinking about the future and the directions we want to go in.

Cat (44:59)
Yeah, well, I think as well, I think content creators and influencers have suffered a little bit from it not being a proper job. And I get it, I totally get it. I don't always feel like I've got a proper job myself. But I think more and more that is changing. And I think people are starting to, I think when you see crappy influencers versus really good ones, I think you start to realise actually, if you're doing it well, it's quite a lot of work, like it is a proper job.

We're not at the coalface or anything. I'm not saying that. I'm not complaining by any means, but I think people

are reevaluating the

role that influencers have and it is a proper, it is a job.

Pippa Goulden (45:44)
It is a job.

Cat (45:44)
And we are trying to progress in a way like everybody else is trying to progress. It's just, we do it in a bit more of a public, you know, needy way.

Pippa Goulden (45:53)
you do. Cat thank you for coming on PR Made Simple it has been so lovely to catch up and speak to you about all of this, I think it's so interesting for everyone as I say on the other side of the fence, so thank you.

Cat (46:07)
It's my pleasure and also I want to take this opportunity to say how proud and pleased I am for you because I remember when you started this and we talked on the phone while I was walking around the park and we were talking about Kajabi and all of that stuff and you've really built an incredible community. So it's amazing to see. So well done, darling.

Pippa Goulden (46:26)
Thank you, thank you. Aren't we great? We are great aren't nice to see you, see you soon.

Cat (46:30)
Aren't we great? We're great.

See you soon darling, bye!